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K6:

--- Quote from: Mogul on Thu, Jun 01, 2006, 07:44 ---We can discuss about "proper" and "improper" behavior, but please consider that it is an illusion that one can set up a legislation framework and then bow and bend people untill they will fit into this framework of "ideal citizens".

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The idea is not so much to impose a framework of behavior than to procede to an inventory of the already existing habits,particularly those
which gays in different parts of the world appear to have in common.I am myself a gay individual 24 hours out of 24,and therefore interested
more in permanent attitudes than in spectacular but punctual ones.Or than in formal aspects of political organization,behind which there might
be no permanent practical action or attitude.An age in which a gay independentist movement will develop and flourish will also be one in which
gays will differenciate themselves much more marquedly from heterosexuals than heretofore.Without such a differenciation,gay political independence either (and most likely) cannot get started,or has zero chances of success.

K6

K6:

--- Quote from: Mogul on Thu, Jun 01, 2006, 07:44 ---
I know that your approach of gay self-determination is based on the single gay individual who acts morally and politically as a representative of the ideal gay state. I imagine the Gay State in a rather conventional manner: as an entity regulating internal and external matters of an organized
group of people who identify themeselves as gay. In my understanding, the state must serve the interests of the people, not the other way.

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If the gay individual,imperfect as we find him in real life and on the street,nevertheless has and affirms certain characteristics having to do with
independence and self-determination,the State itself will eventually and only constitute the cherry on the sundae,a detail.People create States,
not the other way around.

K6

K6:

--- Quote from: Mogul on Thu, Jun 01, 2006, 07:44 ---The problem which I see is not only the lack of support for gay separatism, but the general political passivity of gay population.

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Perhaps it is as well like that.We will eventually encounter gays or members of other sexual minorities who will completely and radically oppose
our political designs.That they will have to rely on a passive constituency to counter us is not per se a bad thing.Or that they fear seeing their sexual orientation disclosed in the course of a public argument with us.They will thus probably prefer shutting up and let us do the talk.

K6

Mogul:

--- Quote from: K6 on Tue, May 30, 2006, 11:47 ---We should rather start with the basics: the citizen and his proper behavior as a political agent and instrument of gay self-determination.When we have a critical number of individuals behaving as citizens,then perhaps - I say perhaps - we can start discussing about functions,titles and forms of organization.
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I do not agree with this notion - we must work with real people as they are and not as they should be. If we had to wait untill some "ideal type" of a gay person evolves, the gay self-determination will newer come. No, the really existing states and organizations teach us every day that greate successes are possible with existing, imperfect human beings as they are - as long as they are clear of their common interests and goals. We can discuss about "proper" and "improper" behavior, but please consider that it is an illusion that one can set up a legislation framework and then bow and bend people untill they will fit into this framework of "ideal citizens".

I know that your approach of gay self-determination is based on the single gay individual who acts morally and politically as a representative of the ideal gay state. I imagine the Gay State in a rather conventional manner: as an entity regulating internal and external matters of an organized
group of people who identify themeselves as gay. In my understanding, the state must serve the interests of the people, not the other way. Of course, before we can talk about "state" we must gather a significant amount of individuals identifying as members of the gay nation, and have established administrative structures as far as they are required. For example, in an organization acting solely on the internet, the positions of a webmaster and a speaker are very important, while there is no need to entertain a "Minister of health" or a "Defence Minister", whereas in an isolated gay village it is exactly the other way.

Therefore we must contemplate what our goals are, what actions must be taken (internet posting, hardcopy publishing, street actions, establishing a settlement ot a permanent camp?), and consider appropriate organizatory structures.


--- Quote from: K6 on Tue, May 30, 2006, 11:47 ---The present situation suits me: a central discussion place in the present forum,along with local individuals or small circles who could act on site and in real life,and report in the discussion place.The method of trial and error,all the more usefull that it will apply in real and different local conditions.An example of action on site which I once reported here is my withdrawal from participation in local canadian elections back in 1979.What steps gays from other parts of the world have taken on site and in their respective places in connection with local hethro elections is one practical subject among hundreds or thousands which could be discussed in this forum.
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I am well aware that "many ways lead to Rome". Internet discussions and reporting is an essential contribution to the gay national movement, and I can perfectly live with the fact that you limit your activities to this field. My personal opinion is, however, that we must extend our actions into the physical world as well. This has two major reasons:

1) We must be able to interact with persons who never have heard of "gay nationalism" and therefore never come to the idea of making a search for our discussion forums via Google. Actually, most people do not spend much time on the Internet. Many of them are potentially susceptive to our ideas, so we must watch out for the means to reach this audience via printed magazines and direct propaganda on campuses, in bars and on gay pride events;

2) Collective efforts would enable us to put our activities on a more stable basis, than it is possible solely relying on "heroic efforts of singular individuals." Think of purchase, digitalization and translation of important literature, funding of art and research, establishing a camp for gay youth etc - all this requires money. Of course such high-flying plans will only be taken in consideration when we have sufficient number of members and finances, but somehow we have to start?


--- Quote from: K6 on Wed, May 31, 2006, 12:38 ---[..] This being said,gay organizations which have appeared a bit too quickly could dissapear as quickly,because of their lack of depht,preparation and dedication. [..] One serves the cause of gay self-determination during his entire life.
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Only few individuals actually do dedicate their entire life to one idea. Nevertheless, there is a plentitude of organizations which are flourishing since decades (or even centuries), doing good job and generally being very successful. The secret of such organizations is a combination of dedication and ressources with a good, convincing idea. It is good to have idealists dedicating their life to such ideas, but they must have means for their work: without medicine and good supply "Medicines Sans Frontiers" would never be able to help anybody. In our situation, either our folks do not understand that every work requires ressources, or our idea is not convincing enough.


--- Quote from: K6 on Wed, May 31, 2006, 13:08 ---Gay political independence as a goal will not attract many individuals of the sedentary category with no taste for roaming or adventure.
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The problem which I see is not only the lack of support for gay separatism, but the general political passivity of gay population. Regarding millions of gays in the western world, it is quite difficult to understand why so few actually do participate in matters of gay politics. For example, in Germany we have some 3.5 - 5.0 millions of adult homosexuals, of them only 3.000 are organized in the German Lesbian and Gay Association (LSVD), this makes less than 0.1% of Germany's gay population. It is generally a wonder, that any progress in gay rights was achieved at all.

K6:

--- Quote from: Mogul on Tue, May 30, 2006, 08:35 ---
If this doesn't sound like a suggestion to create an own territorial state for Uranians?  >:) Unfortunately, Mr Ulrichs was not able to create even such a little thing as an Uranian association - like he had planned. The reason was simple: from those "25.000 Uranians" (in truth, millions), may be a dozen would join, whereas the others were not at all interested in taking any action 

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In the times of Mr Ulrichs,the world population was at around one billion.It is now at seven billion,and with far better and efficient systems of international communications.A gay independence movement could attract and involve over the years several millions of gays.But as one should expect,gays of a rather unilateral type.Gay political independence as a goal will not attract many individuals of the sedentary category with no taste
for roaming or adventure.I wouldn`t expect to see many stereotypical gays (as heterosexuals visualise them) showing up.

K6

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