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The nature of Bigotry

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Mogul:
Acknowledged, we all are subject to some kind of bigotry, but the resulting damages are very different. I for my part am pretty merciless against homosexual Catholics, but there is probably not much harm caused. After all, I respect everyone's right to adhere to any kind of quirky beliefs,  the right I claim for myself, as well. Now if anybody comes with the "freedom of conscience" as a reason to stop brabbling irritating things about religions? People have mouths for talking, and a society, however small, shall talk about controversal issues. As long as discussions don't turn derogatory and flaming, there is much to encourage them. 
 :=SU
Nobody is born bigot, but one becomes a bigot -- this is the difference to homosexuality. Bigots learn their bigotry at home, at school and among friends. Much harm is done by lacking sanctioning of wrong behaviour, and by lacking affirmation of proper behaviour. The same way the straight boys learn to use homophobic language, the gay boys learn to despise themselves and other Gays, too. The "peer group" [=straight and fake straight friends] encourages certain types of acting, talking and thinking, by instant sanctioning of one types of behaviour and affirmation of other. Now, in a group of Gay people, some Gay people express opinions or behavious which is clearly homophobic and anti-solidary -- and meet approval! This is ridiculous and unhealthy. Gay peer group shall work exactly the other way - discouraging anti-social behaviour and encouraging solidarity. Discussion probably can not turn a total bigot into a lovely creature, but one very well can help a self-hating Gay individual to move the right way by seriously talking to him.


--- Quote from: Athrael on Wed, May 09, 2007, 21:45 ---The Society of the Gay Nation we can assume will be open and tolerant, however it will have to include the science of psychology and sociology in not only its creation but in its day to day running. Part and parcel of that will be facing the realities that most of the immigrant population will not only have suffered at the hands of bigots, but will themselves have their own personal bigotries.
--- End quote ---

Yes, many of those who would come probably will have serious psychological problems -- just torture a person long enough and you will cause any kind of psychical disorder. These problems rarely are expressed in any anti-social behaviour (as our enemies wish us to believe), but mostly in a variety of self-destructive behaviour patterns. Drug and alcohol abuse are few to be mentioned here. The lowered self-esteem and emotional isolation, risky behaviour etc can be treated by psychologists, and a healthy and affirmative environment of the Gay-majority population will result in quick recovery of newcomers. Loving surrounding will remedy many wrongdoings the person had experienced before.


--- Quote from: Athrael on Wed, May 09, 2007, 21:45 ---The ruler against one measures oneself although skewed and based on false assumptions of what self identity is about, exists as a "guide" to which the person must measure him/herself against. [..] The problem is that there will still be the measurement process in the works. Those well adjusted individuals who are less prone to bigotry are usually those who do not need a ruler to measure themselves by.
--- End quote ---

I can agree insofar the ruler is used to measure one's personal worth in comparison to others. This indeed is an entirely foolish habit that many people are used to -- they compare their cloth, bank account, penis, friends and relatives to those of others, and draw conclusions on where to position themselves on the global stage of vanity.

Quite another thing is the question of ethical rulers when applied to what we do. A deed can be inherently good or evil, and judgement upon behaviour is not only permitted, it is often urgently required. Recently I had a conversation with a Catholic friend of me (who was close to join the priesterhood) abouth ethics and morality, and I was shoked by his viewpoint that actually there is no "right" or "wrong", "good" or "evil", "true" or "false". He was claiming that these categories are "depending upon the situation", and that one should not have overly lifted ethical expectations towards oneselfe and towards others. Avoiding explicite wording, he basically said that it is entirely justified to act immorally, if one expects some benefits from this -- and that such was the human nature, which each of us has the right to follow without much remorsal. I was shaken. What's worth of ethical considerations and philosophy, if everybody can claim his right to act contrary to social interest without receiving at least a word of reproach?


--- Quote from: Athrael on Wed, May 09, 2007, 21:45 ---The main reason why a Gay Nation would be created is because of bigotry and how it manifests itself.  As I was recently told on another forum:

Whether you survive or not, you'll continue to be deviates and will never be accepted. That's been the case as long as there has been humanity, and will continue to be until we all vanish from this earth.
--- End quote ---

Oh, this kind of merry bigotry is caused not by any hidden homosexual tendencies. This kind of bigotry is caused by the mere sense of perceived power upon the perceived victim -- the very moment you have the baseball bat, these bigots and straight supremacist very quickly turn whimsical, entirely submissive creatures. Fags with machine guns don't get bashed easily. 

Athrael:
Reading from another topic and taking a statement from that topic I start a new topic.


--- Quote ---Self-hatred does not go away by itself, it must be purged -- if necessary, with a couple of unkind, but clear words. It is a friend's service, after all, to liberate a Gay person from homophobic attitudes.
--- End quote ---

It is as wrong to think one can rehabilitate (purge) a bigot just like it is wrong to think one can rehabilitate a homosexual. Yes people try to remove both traits, yet at the end of the day the very best that can happen is that the person we are "fixing" ends up in a closet, pretending to be something they are not the "issue" of their personality is not resolved, it is just buried under programming and teaching them how to act like they are ________ (fill in the black as needed).

Psychology has come  to a point of agreement that the bigot is a bigot due more to perceptions and worth of self than the worth of the target of their bigotry ("I'm better than you are because _____" mentality). Self worth is heavily reliant upon a Rule to Measure one's self against.  Ergo the theory that most homophobes are homophobic because they themselves are gay or have a strong identity with homosexuality which drives them to loath that which they are unable or unwilling to explore within themselves. Coupled with society expectations (morals) the manifestation of hatred and loathing of the target becomes part of the ingrained personality. A feature, although undesirable, that is part of that person's character and to one degree or another affects many aspects of that personality.

In the case of homosexuality we can have arguments like "I am gay, but I don't practice it." or "I am gay, but I am not a nelly queen" Here the justification of either abstinence or fitting a certain personality profile is "justification" that one kind of gay is worse than another kind of gay - and of course the arguer stands upon the "moral high ground" that s/he does not fall into that "lower" category. The ruler against one measures oneself although skewed and based on false assumptions of what self identity is about, exists as a "guide" to which the person must measure him/herself against.

In order to purge bigotry we have to retrain the individual to refocus on what makes them a worthy member of society. This means you have to undo a lifetime of programming either through parental or societies program of expectation, and refocus them on some other ruler to base "self worth" against.  The problem is that there will still be the measurement process in the works. Those well adjusted individuals who are less prone to bigotry are usually those who do not need a ruler to measure themselves by.

The Society of the Gay Nation we can assume will be open and tolerant, however it will have to include the science of psychology and sociology in not only its creation but in its day to day running. Part and parcel of that will be facing the realities that most of the immigrant population will not only have suffered at the hands of bigots, but will themselves have their own personal bigotries.

The main reason why a Gay Nation would be created is because of bigotry and how it manifests itself.  As I was recently told on another forum:

Whether you survive or not, you'll continue to be deviates and will never be accepted. That's been the case as long as there has been humanity, and will continue to be until we all vanish from this earth.

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