GLR Forum

General Forum => Politics => Topic started by: Feral on Fri, Jan 20, 2006, 21:30

Title: Denneny 5: Cultural Genocide
Post by: Feral on Fri, Jan 20, 2006, 21:30
Denneny's fifth proposition is as follows: "The appalling violence— physical, psychological, social, and intellectual—unleashed against gays by Western society in modern times is a clear attempt at cultural genocide."

American racists have inflicted extraordinary suffering on American blacks but they have not tried to pretend that the black hero, Crispus Attucks, the first casualty of the American Revolutionary War, was white. The Nazi lunatics sought to systematically exterminate Jews, yet opened perverse “museums” of “decadent” Jewish art (which, ironically, were very popular). The astonishingly systematic yet spontaneous attempts to expunge our very existence from the historical record—through silence, deliberate distortion, and mendacious interpretation—have very few precise parallels: one thinks of some of Stalin’s more bizarre attempts at rewriting history or the nearly successful extermination of the Albigensians, even in memory. Even the cynical will be startled by the catalogue of lies briefly reviewed by John Boswell in his brilliant and seminal work, Christianity, Social Tolerance and Homosexuality. To quote one of the more amusing instances: “Sometimes their anxiety to reinterpret or disguise accounts of homosexuality has induced translators to inject wholly new concepts into texts, as when the translators of a Hittite law apparently regulating homosexual marriage insert words which completely alter its meaning or when Graves ‘translates’ a nonexistent clause in Suetonius to suggest that a law prohibits homosexual acts.”

When one reflects that the Stalinist scholars worked under the threat of totalitarian terror, that the Albigensian Crusades were fueled by a wave of popular hysteria that was transitory, if devastating, and contrasts these to the calm, systematic, un-coerced, uncoordinated, utterly pervasive, enduring, and relentless attempt to destroy, falsify, and denigrate gay history, paranoia seems a sane response. What are we to do with people who will go to such lengths as to doctor the records of a Hittite civilization that flourished three-and-a-half thousand years ago?

The importance of reclaiming and preserving our history is a precept that has been taken to heart by the gay community. A quick Google search will turn up dozens of gay history projects, of varying quality. Genocide is, however, a strong word. Denneny does not use it carelessly. What else can you call the attempt to expunge a people's existence from history itself. Apparently it is not enough for us to not exist -- we must never have existed.
Title: Re: Denneny 5: Cultural Genocide
Post by: Mogul on Sat, Jan 21, 2006, 23:31
Two points are essential in discussion of this issue:


Whereas it is obviously, that cultural gods are the best way protected by bringing them into our possession or at least making a good copy, the questions of accessibility of these goods is a more delicate one. The previous regimes effectively prohibited the access to these goods, supporting wrong translations, attaching fig leafs onto the statues while hiding the originals somewhere in archives. With invention of the book print, it became possible for scholars to spread they ideas among the folk. Some of our species took advantage of this means to introduce the homosexual culture to homosexuals themselves and the public at large - especially in the last 50 years. Unfortunately, these books were often hard to find or not at all available in the particular city or country. Libraries refused to take them into their catalogues or didn't properly describe them - a youth would vainly search explicitly for homosexual poetry, even if the books were on the shelves.

Now, in the western world it is of no especial difficulty to find some material about homosexuality - this is good. Internet gives us a great possibility to make a lot of texts and paintings available to everybody - but a systematical gathering into one larger resource would be very helpful, a kind of a National Library. Additionally translations into various languages would be very helpful, or we will face the situation that most of us still will be unable to access the contents of texts, despite of their internet presence. The commercial culture is doing a great job in creation and translation of much of the gay popular belletristic and films, but due to its commercial nature it is somewhat limited to the commercially most yielding projects. The currently neglected fields are e.g. short films and translations into and from languages spoken mostly in poor countries. Generally, our cultural prospectives are very good, thank to the internet and many voluntary translators and projects. The internet, however, is of course subject of control by the respective governments. In China the government is blocking many international websites with inconvenient content, gay topics belonging to the censored issues. Any domain can be taken from the web by an ordinance of a local judge - it is therefore possible that in case of need all our progresses can be reverted within 24 h by a single well-coordinated action of 12 or 15 governments, covering the waste majority of the "civilised world".

There is therefore a need to create a strategy of complete recovery upon any future attack. Ideally, we should have various archiving centres spread over the world, with some of them active and visible, others being kept secretly and serving as "back-up" archives not only for electronic information, but also for printed copies and sculpture copies. Also individual gays should be encouraged to regularly download the entire electronic archives for the worst case that gay infrastructure shall be completely destroyed and it will be to the citizens themeselves to rebuild it new.

For the daily work, a safe place independent from any other government would be great. Having the legislation which suits us the best, we could build up our National Archives free of any solely commercially copyright limitations and do as it is best for the entire people.
Title: Re: Denneny 5: Cultural Genocide
Post by: K6 on Sun, Jan 22, 2006, 00:13
Two points are essential in discussion of this issue:

  • How can we prevent our cultural goods from being physically destroyed and be therefore lost forever?
Owing to our particular demographic structure,we do have a problem of transmission of cultural assets from one generation to another.But
that problem has become less insurmontable since the advent of the internet.Our demographic characteristics also have advantages which
compensate for their flaws.We are avaible full time for social and political service.A combination of exploitation of modern technology with
our availability could produce interesting results to our benefit.

K6
Title: Re: Denneny 5: Cultural Genocide
Post by: Mogul on Mon, Jan 23, 2006, 09:52
One of the recent examples of cultural oppression is the last-moment decision not to show the film "Brokeback Mountain" in some film theaters in Utah.

Fortunately, the current liberal situation in the so-called "western world + Japan" inspires a general rise of gay art - partially with fruitfull participation of heterosexual artists and writers.
Title: Re: Denneny 5: Cultural Genocide
Post by: Mogul on Mon, Jan 30, 2006, 23:28
Now certainly one must acknowledge and face the negative, but there's a danger (by habitually ignoring or downplaying the positive) of elevating the negative to a level that simply doesn't exist.

It is true that some theaters in Utah refused to show ‘Brokeback Mountain.' But it is also true that this decision (though heartily approved in some quarters) was received overall with ridicule and disapproval. That point, Vicky, you failed to mention as well. It's always critical to look at the overall picture in order to accurately gauge our situation. If one doesn't, than you are in constant danger of distorting reality; and in extreme cases of even falling into a form of paranoia.

Today (30.01.2006) the portal gayrussia.ru (http://www.gayrussia.ru/events/detail.php?ID=3519) reported that "Brokeback Mountain" was forbidden to show in China.
Title: Re: Denneny 5: Cultural Genocide
Post by: Feral on Fri, Feb 17, 2006, 01:22
Rictor Norton (http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk/suppress.htm) has written a fine essay detailing the scope of the cultural genocide that Denneny refers to.
Title: Re: Denneny 5: Cultural Genocide
Post by: K6 on Fri, Feb 17, 2006, 13:13

The invention of writing and then of printing could save the existence or at least preserve the memory of those heterosexual nations which lived on the edge of extinction.But they were of no use to us gays.Our chances will perhaps be better with the internet.Read and eventually perpetuated
by younger gay generations,forums having to do with political independence could serve as places of accumulation and channels of transmission of specific gay knowledge.All the more that this would happen on a global and not on a merely local scale,owing to the nature of the internet.My preference would go to some online political academy,where young gays having a computer and internet access could receive at last a civic formation.Not having to start all over what was probably thinked,but lost,by precedent gay generations.Such a modern destiny we gays have !

K6
Title: Re: Denneny 5: Cultural Genocide
Post by: K6 on Sat, Feb 18, 2006, 08:33

It is not enough that whatever constitutes our cultural and political heritage reaches gays of the future,which it has a good chance to achieve with the internet.Whatever reaches gays of the future will also have to be acceptable to them.For they could themselves censor it,and not necessarily in the way we might first imagine.What could be unacceptable to gays of the future ? The same we gays of the present would not ourselves accept from gays of the past.When I came out at age 16 and in 1970,there was already available gay litterature in my part of the world.I remember fondly
of "Les Amitiés Particulières" (Special Friendships) from a French author by the name of Pereyfitte.But overhall,whatever was available in terms of gay litterature or stories appeared to me as too *defeatist* to be of any interest.I would rather read books of general history,where one finds stories with such components as struggles,adventure,exploits and heroes.Which gay litterature doesn`t seem to hold in plenty.So,it would be better that we censor ourselves now,before we are censored later by other gay generations who might not like what we are writing now.We should avoid writing defeatist stuff.

K6
Title: Re: Denneny 5: Cultural Genocide
Post by: Mogul on Mon, Feb 20, 2006, 11:07
Rictor Norton (http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk/suppress.htm) has written a fine essay detailing the scope of the cultural genocide that Denneny refers to.

Rictor Norton's website contains also some elaborate collection on "queers in history" and a discourse of the modern queer theory.

[..] My preference would go to some online political academy,where young gays having a computer and internet access could receive at last a civic formation.Not having to start all over what was probably thinked,but lost,by precedent gay generations.Such a modern destiny we gays have ! [..]

Yes, a kind of virtual library and a couple of online-books on gay/queer history, from brief introductions to a graduate study level. Just like in any other history courses. Additionally, reviews upon gay/queer painting, sculpture, literature and film art. And an archive for those, who intend to perform studies on raw material.

There are some good publications (e.g. Kenneth J. Dover: "Greek Homosexuality", ISBN 0674362705) and compillations ("We Are Everywhere: A Historical Sourcebook of Gay and Lesbian Politics", ISBN 0415908590.).

Unfortunately, the copyright laws prohibit any project which is intended to supply less wealthy individuals online with original material. Therefore we are currently doomed to offer bibliography lists and self-written reviews, in the hope that people can either buy the stuff on their own or find it in a local library. As the copyright-laws in our countries are unprobable to change in the next future, it would be a good and realistic solution to entertain gay libraries/film archives, spread over the world sufficiently tightly. All this is solely a question of ressources and organization.

In the distant future, if/when the gay state shall be established, we should probably consider laws restricting copyright to, let's say 10 years after production date (like patents). Alternatively, the gay state (or our foundation) might buy the rights from the rightfull owners after 10 years of commercial use and distribute the works freely or for a symbolic fee. Some works may be performed with the funds of the gay state (which is one of its important tasks).

It is not enough that whatever constitutes our cultural and political heritage reaches gays of the future,which it has a good chance to achieve with the internet.Whatever reaches gays of the future will also have to be acceptable to them.For they could themselves censor it,and not necessarily in the way we might first imagine. [..] So,it would be better that we censor ourselves now,before we are censored later by other gay generations who might not like what we are writing now.We should avoid writing defeatist stuff.

K6, you rise a very important question here - the problem of censoreship by the state or its organizations. It is true that it is very tempting to censore works which appear vulgare/unimportant/disgusting to us - e.g. rough violence or BL topics. There is no need to declare every kind of visual art as our cultural heritage (bestiality, rape etc. surelly is not worthy to be preserved for future generations). However, we have to be very cautious with censoreship - what seems politically correct today, might become questionable later. The old Greeks were very fond of boy love, whereas our current understanding of homosexuality usually differs from this very much. This will probably go the usual way of art - some works will be "officially" selected into state-supported "cultural heritage", others will be archived for research purposes, and lots of other stuff will be preserved by various private holders. The govrnmentally supported museums should have the right to store mostly the valueable content, but an outright censoreship should be restricted only to clearly criminal material.

As self-censoreship is concerned, I wouldn't dare to give any recommendations to anyone.  >:) People should express themeselves at the best they can. However, as a private person I think that some books were best not written at all, that's true!  =))
Title: Re: Denneny 5: Cultural Genocide
Post by: K6 on Mon, Feb 20, 2006, 13:40

In the distant future, if/when the gay state shall be established, we should probably consider laws restricting copyright to, let's say 10 years after production date (like patents). Alternatively, the gay state (or our foundation) might buy the rights from the rightfull owners after 10 years of commercial use and distribute the works freely or for a symbolic fee. Some works may be performed with the funds of the gay state (which is one of its important tasks).

In a politically independent gay civilisation without family structures or lineages,the proper heir of everything,including litterary productions,should be the State.Individuals,however,will not necessarily trust State agencies,even if they are gay.And other social structures will anyway replace the family and allow for the normal transmission by way of wills.The individual will still have the possibility of transmitting inheritance to individuals of his choice,only that these individuals won`t be relatives.Family names,however,won`t serve any purpose and could eventually be abolished.They could be replaced in official documents - like identity cards - by the "vintage year" of the individual,that is his year of birth.Instead of rivalvy in reference to dynasty as in heterosexual society,individuals would boast about their respective generationd and their accomplishments.

K6
Title: Re: Denneny 5: Cultural Genocide
Post by: Mogul on Mon, Feb 20, 2006, 15:49
An example of how the cultural oppression functions nowadays in western democracies:

Oklahoma City Libraries To Move Books On Gay Families

February 17, 2006 - 9:00 pm ET

(Oklahoma City, Oklahoma)  Nine months after state lawmakers called on publicly funded libraries to remove books on gay families Oklahoma City's 's Metropolitan Library Commission has voted to move the books to a separate section available only to adults. The LGBT-themed books are geared to children's reading levels - from just learning to read to about age 12. The new section will be called the "parenting collection" and lumps books on gay families and growing up gay with books on child abuse, domestic violence and substance abuse. Oklahoma state legislators last May passed a non-binding resolution telling libraries that books written for children about gay families should be placed in Adults Only sections.  They specifically criticized "King & King," "Daddy's Roommate," "The Duke Who Outlawed Jelly Beans" and "Heather Has Two Mommies." The new section will be employed at all 17 libraries in the Oklahoma City-County library system. Eight citizens addressed the library board before the vote.  All were opposed to moving the books. One was a gay pastor - the Rev. Dr. E. Scott Jones, of the Cathedral of Hope in Oklahoma City. "Look at me. Am I someone you should be afraid of?" he said . "Please do not insult me and others like me by passing this reprehensible proposal that segregates us and equates us with child abuse, drug abuse and family violence." Karen Parsons, a lesbian and a former teacher, said she was "appalled" by the proposal. "It's not up to the library to be the thought police or to act as parents," she said. Despite the criticism the commission voted 12-to-1 for the plan.

©365Gay.com 2006[/color] Source: http://365gay.com/Newscon06/02/021706okBooks.htm
Title: Re: Denneny 5: Cultural Genocide
Post by: K6 on Mon, Feb 20, 2006, 23:54

Unfortunately, the copyright laws prohibit any project which is intended to supply less wealthy individuals online with original material. Therefore we are currently doomed to offer bibliography lists and self-written reviews, in the hope that people can either buy the stuff on their own or find it in a local library. As the copyright-laws in our countries are unprobable to change in the next future, it would be a good and realistic solution to entertain gay libraries/film archives, spread over the world sufficiently tightly. All this is solely a question of ressources and organization.

And why couldn`t we run together a propaganda mill of our own in this forum,without claiming any copyright ? Do you claim a copyright for what you post here ? Do I claim one ? I am happy to contribute without copyright to this forum.I am interested only in producing effects and reactions,in the direction of self-determination and among gays.The hell with the copyright.

K6
Title: Re: Denneny 5: Cultural Genocide
Post by: Mogul on Thu, Feb 23, 2006, 14:43
And why couldn`t we run together a propaganda mill of our own in this forum,without claiming any copyright ? Do you claim a copyright for what you post here ? Do I claim one ? I am happy to contribute without copyright to this forum.I am interested only in producing effects and reactions,in the direction of self-determination and among gays.The hell with the copyright.

No, I do not claim copyright for my contributions here! ;D Also nobody objected to being quoted here - but one never knows, what surprises are waiting for us (I was once threatened with a lawsuit here if I would not delete a unhappy member's account within 24 h)! :L Besides, I am not entirely against the copyright - I am only against its abuse. As a copyright possessor I also would dislike the idea that somebody would commercially use my publications without my permission. But by writing a political statement, one should of course be happy when others find the contribution worthy of re-distributing to help achieve more audience.

I agree with you about the abusive nature of some copyright claims, which is e.g. clearly the case when essential works of a deceased gay author may not be reproduced without paying a fee to his distant straight relatives. Unfortunately, my personal opinion on this issue hardly matters, as long as I reside in a highly commercialised country with elaborated legislation and effective persecution. A lawsuit for indemnification for a copyright infringement can be pretty ruineous a thing - therefore we must of course act within the margines of our respective legislations. There are, however, certain possibilities for the "fair use", and we shall take advantage of those legal possibilities. It is, however, not especially adviseable to discuss the ways and means on a public forum like this one.  >:) Once we have effective and legal control over our own territory, we are free to introduce our own legislation on this subject, in the wa which serves our people the best. 

In the meanwhile, we are clearly in the duty of gathering previous ideas, re-thinking them, and introducing new ones. Simple archiving of material in digital form and catalogization clearly belong to the fair use and can be performed already now.

Title: Re: Denneny 5: Cultural Genocide
Post by: K6 on Thu, Feb 23, 2006, 18:23

In the meanwhile, we are clearly in the duty of gathering previous ideas, re-thinking them, and introducing new ones. Simple archiving of material in digital form and catalogization clearly belong to the fair use and can be performed already now.



That`s what I had in mind,an activity of exchange unrelated to the copyright.

K6
Title: Re: Denneny 5: Cultural Genocide
Post by: K6 on Fri, Feb 24, 2006, 04:07
Once we have effective and legal control over our own territory, we are free to introduce our own legislation on this subject, in the wa which serves our people the best. 

We could try to persuade gay authors to transfer their copyrights to the gay State by way of their wills once the said State is in existence.But not
compel them to do so by way of nationalization.Gay government edition and propaganda will exist anyway as a competitor,better equiped to produce in much larger quantity and to saveguard its cultural heritage and creations.If some gay authors think that their own creations can survive outside the secure cultural transmission of a gay State,let them play against the odds of the hethro side and with the piece of paper called copyright.

K6
Title: Re: Denneny 5: Cultural Genocide
Post by: Mogul on Fri, Feb 24, 2006, 14:19
We could try to persuade gay authors to transfer their copyrights to the gay State by way of their wills once the said State is in existence.But not compel them to do so by way of nationalization. [..]

Initially, the copyright was not intended to serve financial interests of large corporations, as we see it happening everywhere nowadays.

The original sense of introducing the copyright legislation was to encourage authors to create new works. Before the copyright laws were enacted, anyone could steal the intellectual property of any poor author and profit on his costs. Thanks to copyright legislation, successfull writers were enabled to live from the fruits of their works.

Therefore I would suggest that the Gay State shall respect the copyright of living authors, whereas all works of deceased authors shall be regarded as public domain. This rule would both enable protection of authors and at the same time serve our cultural needs. In case the government decides to spread any particular work of art for free, it can pay the authors for the right to do so.
Title: Re: Denneny 5: Cultural Genocide
Post by: K6 on Fri, Feb 24, 2006, 18:40

Therefore I would suggest that the Gay State shall respect the copyright of living authors, whereas all works of deceased authors shall be regarded as public domain. This rule would both enable protection of authors and at the same time serve our cultural needs. In case the government decides to spread any particular work of art for free, it can pay the authors for the right to do so.

I`d say that what has to do with economics is negociable.We may choose the type of economical regime we want.In that respect,we are like the Japanese under Emperor Meiji`s reform (1868).Most of which is economical and technical in heterosexual societies can probably be imported by us without modification.It won`t change any more our way of life or our culture than the importation of modern western technology changed the Japanese culture.Economics and technology belong into the category of the *means*.What we cannot import from heterosexual societies are their aims and methods in the field of demography.The demography of a viable gay independent State will have to be entirely nationalized,with no room left for private reproductive initiative.

K6
Title: Re: Denneny 5: Cultural Genocide
Post by: Mogul on Thu, Mar 16, 2006, 12:52
To get the bow back to genocide: the actions toward our people might actually be interpreted as general genocide. Just let's look onto definition of the genocide, as it is included in the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (http://www.ohchr.org/english/law/genocide.htm) :

Article II

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

( a ) Killing members of the group;
( b ) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
( c ) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
( d ) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
( e ) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

I would say, all the attempts to forcibly turn gays into straits, as well as the well-considered hate speeches of many political and religious leaders clearly fall into categories (b) and (c). Regarding the calculated effect of these speeches on the poorly educated and religiously blinded masses, category (a) is readily accepted as well. The brain-washing of gay kids and imposing straight culture on them, also the wide-spread custom of taking away children from the "bad influence" of their homosexual parent fall into categorie (e). To make the list complete we remember the US- and Italian legislation prohibiting lesbian women from fertility medicine. Some will contradict to the aspiration that we are subject to a genocede, because the reported nubers of our deads are not as high as in Rwanda or Bosnia, but please take into account that genocide is defined as any of the above actions (one suffices), and the above category (e) is referring purely to the cultural genocide. The intention is namely to eliminate a distinct culture by the means of interrupting the transfer of this culture to the young generations. Besides, an intended and not yet fully completed genocide is as well to be punished, indeed the crime is well described in the next section:

Article III

The following acts shall be punishable:

( a ) Genocide;
( b ) Conspiracy to commit genocide;
( c ) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;
( d ) Attempt to commit genocide;
( e ) Complicity in genocide.

I would say that many of the catholic, anglican and orthodox religious leaders fall into the categorie (b),(c) and (e); many islamic leaders additionally are involved into fullfilled genocide. Many politicians worldwide, police officers in certain countries, medicos in the past, teachers and parents clearly fall into several of the above categories as well.

The convention also clearly states in what way an orderly governed state is expected to deal with those involved into a genocide:

Article IV

Persons committing genocide or any of the other acts enumerated in article III shall be punished, whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals."

The recent reportedly issued Fathwa (http://365gay.com/Newscon06/03/031506iraq.htm) of the Iraqui Shiit's leader al-Sistani is only the tip of the Eisberg.
Title: Re: Denneny 5: Cultural Genocide
Post by: K6 on Thu, Mar 16, 2006, 18:26
To get the bow back to genocide: the actions toward our people might actually be interpreted as general genocide. Just let's look onto definition of the genocide, as it is included in the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (http://www.ohchr.org/english/law/genocide.htm) :

Article II

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

( a ) Killing members of the group;
( b ) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
( c ) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
( d ) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
( e ) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

I would say, all the attempts to forcibly turn gays into straits, as well as the well-considered hate speeches of many political and religious leaders clearly fall into categories (b) and (c). Regarding the calculated effect of these speeches on the poorly educated and religiously blinded masses, category (a) is readily accepted as well. The brain-washing of gay kids and imposing straight culture on them, also the wide-spread custom of taking away children from the "bad influence" of their homosexual parent fall into categorie (e). To make the list complete we remember the US- and Italian legislation prohibiting lesbian women from fertility medicine.

The exact same thought occured to me­.Allowing no independent reproductive activity of ours amounts to genocide.International
conventions,however,have no soldiers and no police to enforce them.A perpetrator with a strong enough State structure which has not been first defeated in war will get away with genocide.The only way to be secure is to have our own State.

K6
Title: Re: Denneny 5: Cultural Genocide
Post by: K6 on Sat, Mar 18, 2006, 14:51

We are *marginally independent* at the moment,in the sense that our human ressources and existence cannot be taken away from us.As a culture and regardless of the fate of specific individuals,we will always exist.We have the ressources,but there is no gay country for them to go to.

We would be *relatively independent* in a country of ours,where we would have control over our own human ressources by way of immigration.But that would not amount yet to complete independence.

*Complete independence* would entail the following: 1) Absolute control over reproductive activity in a country of ours,by way of assisted reproduction facilities,and exclusive national property of ours over the said facilities 2) Exclusive national property over the human offspring coming
out of those reproduction facilities 3) Exclusive national competence of ours over the education over the said offspring,including the determination of a gay sexual orientation 4) Exclusive moral and national authority over gay youth,wether originating from the above mentionned reproduction facilities or from immigration,along with social and historical role models for the gay youth.

The international environment would perhaps not allow us to have *complete independence*.For it would remain under hethro political control and in the service of the hethro interest,and particularly of its claimed monopoly over reproduction and ownership over human beings.By way of the UN,it could easily declare reproductive activity a monopoly of the hethro family.And it could take sanctions against us should we take steps to achieve *complete independence*.That could go as far as calling for a military intervention against our country.They do so for weapons of mass destruction alledged or real,why they wouldn`t for a reason as strategic as hethro monopoly over reproduction ?

*Complete independence* would be possible in a world where the UN would have no available State capable of enforcing its decisions.For example in a multipolar world with no global superpower.

K6
Title: Re: Denneny 5: Cultural Genocide
Post by: Mogul on Sun, Mar 19, 2006, 20:55
[..] 2) Exclusive national property over the human offspring coming out of those reproduction facilities 3) Exclusive national competence of ours over the education over the said offspring,including the determination of a gay sexual orientation 4) Exclusive moral and national authority over gay youth,wether originating from the above mentionned reproduction facilities or from immigration,along with social and historical role models for the gay youth.

I am inclined to agree to this suggestion, but with a very important correction: insted of "national" (=governmental) control I would insist on the "social" control. This is a very important difference: While the society consists out of many different groups, the government usually represents only a part of the entire political and social spectrum. It would be a very dangerous notion to lay every aspect of education into the hands of the government. No, this responsibility must be shared over a variety of responsible institutions - the government shall only create certain guildlines where it's really necessary. I am thinking of such institutions as libraries, museums, communal/clan education programs etc. While we of course shall create laws regulating the legal status of minors, their direct guidance and education is of no business to the state - instead the local communities/clans shall have the right to determin about their daily needs.

[..] *Complete independence* would be possible in a world where the UN would have no available State capable of enforcing its decisions.For example in a multipolar world with no global superpower. [..]

The recent history shows us, that any particular country (superpower or not) cares little abou the UN and the possible sanctions, if it has a real or imaginated interest in engaging military power. It should be clear to any sensible politician in our days, that war always has two loosers and no winners, but unfortunately there are always enough fools who believe they can win a war. Neither Saddam in 1991, nor Bush in 2003 were disturbed by the prospective of international sanctions or any other difficulties. The only contemplations such "military genious" make are of the following nature: 1) Can they realistically defeat the enemy, and 2) How much profit (either in ressources or land) can they win by accomplishing the aggression? Humanitary motivations never play any role, even if they are widely abused for propagana.

Therefore we must abandon the idea that the ballance of powers in the world wouls affect us directly: no one would send a single soldier to us out of concern about the fate of poor heterosexuals persecuted in the gay state. Sure, the Vatican and other bigots would make much noise, but they wouldn't spend a penny to improve the situation of that poor devils. Not that I was agitating for oppression of straights in the gay state (god beware!), but the only way to maintain souvereignity and prevent foreign occupation is the maintainance of sufficient defense forces and focussing on our own problems. Let the big boys play their games alone, and keep on smiling, but reserve the right to kill each and any agressor. Not the "servile" countries live safe, but those with good defence - among others North Korea, Vietnam and Cuba (directly in front of it's worst enemy - the US!). Smart diplomacy and pacting with the right allies would enlarge our safety. Spreading some rumour that we have inventeg the "gay bomb" turning brave heterosexuals into vicious faggots, we would protect our borders for millenia. =))

[..] As a culture and regardless of the fate of specific individuals,we will always exist.We have the ressources,but there is no gay country for them to go to. [..]

Here I must disagree with you. Though it is certainly true that homosexuals will always exist as they did before, we can very well be deprived of our culture, if we do not take care. Books can be burned, websites can be closed and historic records can be falsified. It is very easy for any future story-teller to make a famous gay ingeneur or mathematician to appear as hetero, and make of Adolf Hitler a homo. We will be well-advised to use the time slot now and secure our heritage, or what is left of this.
Title: Re: Denneny 5: Cultural Genocide
Post by: K6 on Mon, Mar 20, 2006, 01:01

Therefore we must abandon the idea that the ballance of powers in the world wouls affect us directly: no one would send a single soldier to us out of concern about the fate of poor heterosexuals persecuted in the gay state.

It is possible that a certain number of hethro States will not be pleased with the presence of a new geopolitical actor with a reproductive apparatus entirely independent from the heterosexual culture and political body.We could however have in advance an idea of what would be lying ahead by studying the current opposition to new reproductive technology in nowadays heterosexual societies.People who hold power or monopoly over something - like reproduction and/or ownership of human ressources - will expectedly not accept with much enthusiasm the loss of that power or
monopoly.

K6
Title: Re: Denneny 5: Cultural Genocide
Post by: K6 on Mon, Mar 20, 2006, 01:24
Smart diplomacy and pacting with the right allies would enlarge our safety. Spreading some rumour that we have inventeg the "gay bomb" turning brave heterosexuals into vicious faggots, we would protect our borders for millenia. =))

Well,we could spread wild rumors about what could happen to eventual invaders ending up as prisoners of war in our hands.Surely,you understand what I mean here,there is no need to be specific.

In my novel,there was such a collision between the gay colony and a foreign paramilitary invasion force.Part of the gay (also paramilitary) force
facing them was composed of young men who had almost no notion of what hethro foreign domination was,and therefore no fear whatsoever
of doing battle with the invaders.In the beginning,they thus set out to ambush and slaughter joyously the said invaders.The colony had forgot to inform them about the Geneva convention.After the war had ended in gay victory,prisonners beg gay colonial authorities not to deliver them into the hands of those cunning,cruel and barbarous young gay males.

K6
Title: Re: Denneny 5: Cultural Genocide
Post by: K6 on Tue, Mar 21, 2006, 12:17
Sure, the Vatican and other bigots would make much noise, but they wouldn't spend a penny to improve the situation of that poor devils.

With a gay independent State in the landscape,the Vatican will have to act cautiously.First,because we will then be able to out in complete impunity catholic priests who have homosexual interests (we should have a yellow press,just for that purpose).Second,because we will have one of the best
intelligence services,with eyes and ears in every country.And eventually with provocators as well,who will seduce homosexual priests and flush out that type of information.Imagine an article thus titled in the gay press of a country of ours: "ANALYSIS OF THE LAUNDRY WATER OF THE VATICAN: EVIDENCE OF LOT OF MASTURBATION GOING ON THERE".Or "CARDINAL OF THE HOLY SEE CAUGHT IN BED WITH A YOUNG MALE SECRETARY
AND OPERATIVE OF THE GAY REPUBLIC EMBASSY IN ROME: ALL THE IMAGES AVAILABLE ON PAGES 2 AND 3".

K6