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Author Topic: Gay Emigration Survey - suggestions?  (Read 3923 times)

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Athrael

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Re: Gay Emigration Survey - suggestions?
« Reply #9 on: Wed, May 09, 2007, 20:38 »

I smile.

Really... I'm smiling. :)

The very special religious views of Gay people are only 'special' within the matrix of heterosexual religion. Naturally there are "heretical" adjustments to be made to a heterocentric religious view before it can be sanely espoused by Gays. Once within a purely Gay matrix, there is no special character to speak of -- it is simply religion.

I cannot speak for the various flavors of Gay Christianity, but I assure you the Gay Wiccans will prove to be quite troubling. The instant some sort of ecumenical activity is attempted by these people the fireworks shall begin. They will be very familiar fireworks as well -- we are quite well practiced in them. Should that error be avoided, then yes... no danger would be posed to other Gays by even the most outrageous fundamentalism on the parts of the various sects.

I doubt that gay Wicca or other pagan traditions will poise a problem, unless they realize that they are, in the GLBT the majority. They are the majority followed closely by Atheism and Agnostic "faiths" due to their lack of admonishments to the GLBT - if anything most pagan traditions hold duality of gender sacred thus are attractive systems of belief to the GLBT.

Most gay Christians (as example) understand the reasons why Paganism is popular, after all the gays who seek God through this  path faced the same bigotries and problems of Doctrine and acceptance which caused many pagans to seek God via a different path.  No doubt there will be a desire to convert, how strong of a desire will be up to the individual.

Further we should not forget that even in the GLBT community there is the drive toward "ghetto-fication" as I call it (I use ghetto in the old sense not in the negative sense). Like minded peoples tend to form groups and sub-communities. In the case of gays, the differences of sexual expression as in the Leather crowd an example of how like interests promotes a subculture within the GLBT. They have even gone to far as to make their own flag (Blue, white and black) in contrast to the Rainbow.

We can expect the same from the various paths of Religion - however we should also expect a more "natural" tendency toward tolerance.  GLBT tend to be more moderate to liberal in their social and political ideologies even the "hard nosed" religious types are more open to tolerance within their community if not toward the world at large.

According to obituary notices, a mean and useless citizen never dies.

Feral

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Re: Gay Emigration Survey - suggestions?
« Reply #8 on: Wed, May 09, 2007, 14:51 »

Quote
Seriously, religion will probably cause little distress in a Gay population, since most consciously Gay people have their very special religious views (different from any official religious teaching), and in no way will they endanger other Gays by some kind of religious fundamentalism.

I smile.

Really... I'm smiling. :)

The very special religious views of Gay people are only 'special' within the matrix of heterosexual religion. Naturally there are "heretical" adjustments to be made to a heterocentric religious view before it can be sanely espoused by Gays. Once within a purely Gay matrix, there is no special character to speak of -- it is simply religion.

I cannot speak for the various flavors of Gay Christianity, but I assure you the Gay Wiccans will prove to be quite troubling. The instant some sort of ecumenical activity is attempted by these people the fireworks shall begin. They will be very familiar fireworks as well -- we are quite well practiced in them. Should that error be avoided, then yes... no danger would be posed to other Gays by even the most outrageous fundamentalism on the parts of the various sects.
Stonewall was a riot.

Mogul

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Re: Gay Emigration Survey - suggestions?
« Reply #7 on: Wed, May 09, 2007, 07:04 »

As you may be aware within the Gay community there are men and women of Faith.

Admittedly, I have encountered many of them. Thogh I have my very private opinions on religions and gays of faith, there is no necessity to impose those private views upon those folks, who are mostly very decent people despite their obvious lack of judgement.  ;D Seriously, religion will probably cause little distress in a Gay population, since most consciously Gay people have their very special religious views (different from any official religious teaching), and in no way will they endanger other Gays by some kind of religious fundamentalism.

The books themselves are benign in and of themselves, it is the interpretations of those books which causes harm. 

I beg to disagree. Far from being raised as a Christian, I made some efforts to examine the contents of the Bible -- and I know very well what is written in the Old Testament. Provided the recent German transcription is not a total phoney, the Scripture is VERY explicite in its judgement on homosexuals. The entire text is full of violence and brutality, mostly reflecting the barbarian habits of the time. I am of course aware that there are also many interesting "case studies" suitable to provide some help in judgements on human nature, but this book, as it was written, is rather not suitable for education of loving, non-violent human beings. It never was. The teachings of Jesus Christus have certainly more value since he was preaching the exact opposite -- love instead of hate.

The danger coming from all sorts of organnized religions is not that there will be some gay bashing inside of the Gay State, but rather that some Gays are deluded into various beliefs of sinfullness of homosexuality, thus suffering all sorts of mental illness due to these conflicts. Lots of "Christian" organizations are trying to turn old and young Gay people straight, causing very much harm. People shall of course have the constitutional right to read every sort of literature they wish, but it must be also clear that these books are, well, causing severe damages. In my view it would be just and equitable to recover the medication costs by imposing an increased duty on this kind of literature (hard drugs, alkohol and tobacco should be subjected to similar measurements).

There are "gay churches" which focus on the Tolerance and Love of God and Christ. I imagine that those will  come to the shores of a Gay nation while the Catholic Church (as example) would pass Vatican Rulings saying that no clergy should go to that Heathen Shore lest the gay demons possess their souls  :o ;)

Oh, you know Vatican not! They will send us those traitors homosexual priests to seduce our folks to "abandon the sin." These fellows will most probably secretly participate in all kinds of bodily joys, while preaching chastity by daylight. Probably they will regard it as an especially demanding task to convert the deviants? Those clergy aiming to preach Love and Tolerance shall be welcome, but agents of hostile states and officials of criminal organizations shall receive their due treatment shall they dare to put the foot on Gay shores.

More explicitely: there should be a list of wanted criminals (some on charges of incitement to genocide) who will be arrested and tried shall they fall into our hands, the others will be simply deported to where they came from. There is no need to tolerate agents of Vatican on Gay territory -- each of them is clearly persona non grata.
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin

Athrael

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Re: Gay Emigration Survey - suggestions?
« Reply #6 on: Fri, May 04, 2007, 22:34 »



Powell is an interesting sort of man. Considering he comes from a minority in the US which not only was persecuted, segregated but was also enslaved by the establishment it is difficult to understand how he justifies the inequalities of a people. But he will serve to demonstrate the mind set of the modern era sufficently. Even the common black man on the street will harbor ill will and resentment if not down-right hatred of gays.

- - - - - -

It is interesting that the Germans have adopted that turn of phrase as well. If I was paranoid and a conspiracy theorist I would wonder if someone or some group was not purposefully infecting the languages with this.  Its been a few years since I've been over seas, I must wonder if the French, English and others have developed this phrase as well?

- - - - -

As you may be aware within the Gay community there are men and women of Faith. They have come to grips with their sexuality and with God as they understand God and with whatever sacred writing from which they get their inspiration.

The books themselves are benign in and of themselves, it is the interpretations of those books which causes harm.  Faith is a strange motivator, as we can see by the extremist Muslims who have corrupted Islam and use it as a Weapon, a reason to sow destruction - while many other Islamic people can and do live in peace with their neighbors.  No religion is completely free of expressing violence within its sacred writings, however the interpretation and the application of those scriptures by people is what determines the violence of the religion.

I would imagine that a gay nation would by its nature pull out of the world those Men and Women of Faith who are used to Religious Study and who have done so for many years attempting to explain and interpret those religious writings to reflect a place for the gays in God/Allah's/ High Guru of All's eyes.

I think a good historical case study of how religions are formed by a nation would be the USA. It was initially colonized by Puritans who brought their brand of faith to the New World. That tradition has stuck with us, although it has modified a great deal, it is still there and is the number one reason why religion is so important to the USA compared to the nations of the European Union, politically and as a deciding force for societies laws.

There are "gay churches" which focus on the Tolerance and Love of God and Christ. I imagine that those will  come to the shores of a Gay nation while the Catholic Church (as example) would pass Vatican Rulings saying that no clergy should go to that Heathen Shore lest the gay demons possess their souls  :o ;)

We can expect a population that is a majority of homosexuals would bring with it those religious values and books that they believe in. We would also imagine that their interpretation of those would be somewhat different than the "traditional" or hetro-centric view of things.

As http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_isla.htm states:

Quote
More liberal movements within these religions often tend to stress logic, reason, and personal experience. This includes scientific findings. It is only since about 1950 that homosexuality has been seriously studied by human sexuality researchers. Liberal individuals and groups within Christianity, Islam and other religions have been quick to incorporate scientific findings within their ethical and religious beliefs. They generally regard homosexuality as a sexual orientation which is ethically neutral, fixed, unchosen, and is normal and natural for a minority of adults.

Of course the Gay Nations constitution or bill of Rights or Amendments or "Points of Clarification" would state point blank that all religions are welcomed and encouraged with in the boundaries of the Nation, having no single religion as its official religion yet understanding through its trials and tribulations in the centuries of persecution that any form of persecution is undesirable and should not be tolerated for any reason.
According to obituary notices, a mean and useless citizen never dies.

Mogul

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Re: Gay Emigration Survey - suggestions?
« Reply #5 on: Fri, May 04, 2007, 07:45 »

Gays get tired of protecting themselves all the time. The "jaded Queen" is not Jaded because of the in community issues, but because after the millionth time of having someone scream at you "fagot" something breaks inside and you understand that no matter how perfect your life is you will still be loathed and considered less than everybody else. For those in places where death is the penalty for homosexuality, yeah they will want to go to the gay nation.

Yep. At a certain point of time, one simply reallizes that we have nothing to expect from the overwhelming majourity of our straight neighbours, coworkers and fellow citizens. Every little bit of progress required unhuman struggles by lobbyists, and the indifference to our needs for basic human rights was (and still is) disgusting. How stupid a person must be to feel emotionally connected to a nation which deprives him of a plentitude of rights, and basically treats him like the scum of the society? I get sick of all those "proud gay Americans" and "proud gay Poles" (exemplary taken) -- being a third-class citizen and proud of your nation? How little self-respect one must have to submit to such a notion.

We are at the top or the bottom of the food chain when it comes to bigotry. After all other minorities have the comfort of knowing themselves, while at the same time loathing the homosexuals even amongst their ranks. We are an equally hated people, hated not only by the majority of strangers but our mothers, fathers, brothers and sisters even within our religions/cultural/race.

Yes, indeed. As Cowlin Powell aptly put it to the point, and Senator McCain quoted him:

Quote
We have successfully mixed rich and poor, black and white, male and female, but open homosexuality in [military] units is not just the acceptance of benign characteristics such as color or gender or background... The presence of an open homosexuality would have an unacceptable, detrimental, and disruptive impact on the cohesion, morale, and esprit of the armed forces.

This otherwise amicable fellow unconsciously expressed just what millions, maybe billions of heterosexuals are thinking of us: homosexuals being the last dirt among peoples. Not only are we ourselves corrupt and immoral, but our sheer presence is suitable to corrupt and destroy any organization and, at large, any society. The Catholic Church has expressed this view by suggesting we were a "cancer of the society", which Cardinal Meisner proposed to "sweat out." The "cure" will be, of course, to get rid of us either physically, or by turning us into straight-acting zombies, who will be then unable to infect "the healthy cells of society".

The despise of Gays by parents and relatives resembles the feelings they would have toward a son who turned out to be a mass murderer: they are terrified, ashamed and disgusted, but on the other side they still know the lad belongs to the family. Indeed, heavy criminals are more respected than Gays in large portions of the world.

It is not uncommon to hear something along the lines of "This is so gay" Meaning that something is bad or wrong. [..] My nieces raised around two gay uncles have no problem throwing out gay in this sense. Although they may not realize what they are doing, the thought is there and it has become a natural thing for them to toss gay about as if gay is all around bad.

I can confirm this for the German language, as well. The word "schwul" is used exactly in the same meaning to depict anything totally weird and disgusting, and "Schwuchtel", "Schwuli" and "Arschficker" are still the most common insults used on schoolyards in Germany. Alike in Polish, Russian and Spanish language - the name of our people is used to denonce anything from pencil to sky scraper. No wonder that we face an amazing phenomenon of men having sex with men but vigorously denying them being gay. At the end, who wishes to sellf-identify as a lowest creature on Earth simply because one sleeps with men?

The second being the push for a Gay Marriage Constitutional Amendment. That is a huge negative and underscores the reality of the social mindset when it comes to us. So devoutly is it wished for us homosexuals to go away that for the very first time the people want an amendment that takes rights and freedoms away from the people, unlike the rest of the amendments and rights which are given to the people.

The decades predecessing the first World War witnessed the emergence of special laws for Jewish citizens in several European countries, the basic idea being that Jews should not have the same rights as Christian citizens. The general impression in the population was that Jews were anyway privileged and much wealthier than the overal population. Similarly to Gays, this was not true - many Jews lived in poverty - but every single wealthy Jew (back those times), and every single wealthy Gay (in our times) is intolerable annoyance for the plebs.The sheer notion that Gays are as worthy as they, normal citizens, enrages many straights.

All religions will have to reside next to each other, all races will have to live with one another. The beauty part of this is that inside of your society sub-societies and cultures will form, they will pick their own place, find their own level and will partially isolate themselves keeping those cultural aspects they hold near and dear thus promoting more influx of citizens who worry that being gay will cause them to give up their other identities.

With regard to the religions, there might be a need for some restictions, I guess. Those highly poisoneus books suggesting killing of homosexuals should be charged with exorbitant import taxes, and members of certain clergies should better stay away from gay shores, unless they repent. But yes, diversity will be a unique chance for such a society.
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin

Athrael

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Re: Gay Emigration Survey - suggestions?
« Reply #4 on: Tue, May 01, 2007, 03:16 »

Folks, I think we should begin a long-term survey to record the mindset of gay and lesbian people towards gay emigration. We should clarify the following questions, for example:

- Do gay people feel as a "folk", if yes, what percentage of them do so?
- Would they welcome the existence of a territorial "gay state"?
- Would they actually wish to emigrate to such a country and under what conditions (generall wealth, health care, job opportunities, full/partial independence, weather)?
- If not, would they like to become citizens?
- What do they think such a state could do for them and in what way would they be ready to support this state?

It would be interesting to know, in what regions / social groups the "willing emmigrants" are located. There will be certainly people who are willing but not able to re-locate, and people, who have sofficient financial means but would rather restrict themeselves on investment but stay where they are.

Such a survey could be announced in mass media and be performed online. Unfortunately, on this way we could reach only the people in industrialized areas. Any ideas how to get the less fortunated involved?


In the course of the 20th century people, researches set about to number our brothers and sisters in "free" nations. The Researches discovered that there was a strong compulsion to not commit to answering key questions surrounding the homosexual question, Not only the direct "Are you gay?" but even their feelings of "how do you feel about John being gay?" Where John is a fictitious person just for the sake of discussion.

Today the two most poplar numbers presented on how gay is the world is 10% and 1%. The truth is nobody knows for certain because a lot of us are not talking out of fear of persecution, harm, death, loss of job whatever.

There is still a strong reluctance to admit to being gay, or even participating in gay research, even in the most open of societies.

We will have to turn to other sources to define what expectation are to be had from a Gay Nation.

1. There will be immigration to the Nation. Just like there is immigration to New York City, Palm Springs and San Francisco. Gays do not move to these places because of job opportunities, the climate or politics, they move to these places to find community - the rest come after they move.

2. Economy, politics will play a tremendous roll in influencing established gay communities. Provide them state supported gay marriage in the Nation, you will get about 1/3 Tag on a first world economy, the luxuries of the first world plus the sheer notion that gays, not straights will be the majority you will have a greater influx.

3. Gays get tired of protecting themselves all the time. The "jaded Queen" is not Jaded because of the in community issues, but because after the millionth time of having someone scream at you "fagot" something breaks inside and you understand that no matter how perfect your life is you will still be loathed and considered less than everybody else. For those in places where death is the penalty for homosexuality, yeah they will want to go to the gay nation.

There will be those who choose to stay behind. It is natural, We are talking about people who have family, friends and a life where they are. Only the pioneers, the pilgrims who see no other choice but to strike out for the new world will go. 

Back in the days of the Pilgrims coming to the New World, many came, many more stayed and suffered the persecutions of their kind.

The first pilgrims to the Gay Nation will naturally be excited and fearful. Excited by the potential, fearful of the lash back. They will be the strongest, the ones who see a need to make a society where they are the majority, establishing a homeland where they are no longer persecuted, where their children will be free. For many the fear of change will force them to remain where they were.

The gay nation is going to have to extend equality to all cultures and peoples. The Gay community is made up of minorities - every race, religion, creed and culture we are found, we are going to have to accept those from our brothers and sisters. Ghettofication is a word I invented to describe the natural order of things. Like people attract like kinds, thus major cities have districts/ghettos which are defined by cultural/racial types.  it will happen in the Gay Nation as well, like peoples will segregate themselves, finding familiarity in like minded individuals.

All religions will have to reside next to each other, all races will have to live with one another. The beauty part of this is that inside of your society sub-societies and cultures will form, they will pick their own place, find their own level and will partially isolate themselves keeping those cultural aspects they hold near and dear thus promoting more influx of citizens who worry that being gay will cause them to give up their other identities.

Creating a "gay nation" for the sole purpose of providing a home for gays will by its very nature require a close inspection of human rights and freedoms and extending true equality beyond just sexual orientation.

Unfortunately cultural racial bigotry will carry forth. I know plenty of gays who use racial slurs and actually hate other gays due to such things as skin color. The job will be huge, it will demand creating a society which all bigotry is frowned upon - a society where Bigot is a four letter word, worse than nigger, worse than fag.

According to obituary notices, a mean and useless citizen never dies.

K6

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Re: Gay Emigration Survey - suggestions?
« Reply #3 on: Tue, May 30, 2006, 13:32 »

- Do gay people feel as a "folk", if yes, what percentage of them do so?
 

In liberal and tolerant countries,I think that gays consider themselves as a distinct group.They would not compromise with the lifestyle the hethro
majority,even if it brought them advantages.On another hand,gays identify also with subdivisions - ethnic,racial or other - of the hethro environment.
They also behave as if they were subjects and denizens of the hethro political body to remain so indefinitely,as they claim a place in hethro
societies.They take part in the political processes of those societies,instead of treating them as foreign entities and through the appropriate
political procedures.Gays have in terms of accomplishments no real national identity.They have only some steps preparatory to that.

K6

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Re: Gay Emigration Survey - suggestions?
« Reply #2 on: Wed, May 10, 2006, 00:12 »


I would answer present as a permanent resident and citizen of a gay independent State.Only that there is a slight mental reservation involved here: I would not have to migrate.I think that the place where I live now - the St.Lawrence valley in north America - would be the ideal one where to set up a gay independent State.It is thinly populated,and its demographic make up could thus be modified quickly.It is at the moment under the sovereignty of a rather weak State by the name of Canada.And its demographic make up is fluid,dynamic,modified continuously by immigration which forms the basis upon which the canadian State was historically founded.Immigration accounts for about half of the yearly human replacements of the canadian State.This is ominous,as our country,the gay Republic of the future,in which we will live in freedom at last,will be based exclusively upon immigration.Canada is tolerant to gays,because it is less dependent upon the reproductive activity of local hethro breeders.These are all factors of an objective geopolitical nature we must now contemplate,as we talk and dream of a country of ours.

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Mogul

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Gay Emigration Survey - suggestions?
« Reply #1 on: Mon, Oct 03, 2005, 18:09 »

Folks, I think we should begin a long-term survey to record the mindset of gay and lesbian people towards gay emigration. We should clarify the following questions, for example:

- Do gay people feel as a "folk", if yes, what percentage of them do so?
- Would they welcome the existence of a territorial "gay state"?
- Would they actually wish to emigrate to such a country and under what conditions (generall wealth, health care, job opportunities, full/partial independence, weather)?
- If not, would they like to become citizens?
- What do they think such a state could do for them and in what way would they be ready to support this state?

It would be interesting to know, in what regions / social groups the "willing emmigrants" are located. There will be certainly people who are willing but not able to re-locate, and people, who have sofficient financial means but would rather restrict themeselves on investment but stay where they are.

Such a survey could be announced in mass media and be performed online. Unfortunately, on this way we could reach only the people in industrialized areas. Any ideas how to get the less fortunated involved?
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin
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