GLR Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Read "Sixteen Propositions" by Michael Denneny in our online-Library!
 http://library.gayhomeland.org/0003/EN/index.htm

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4   Go Down

Author Topic: Kingdom of Fridet  (Read 19741 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

K6

  • Guest
Re: Kingdom of Fridet
« Reply #16 on: Thu, Dec 08, 2005, 23:50 »


You shall admit, this notion to determine who is "truly gay" in such a restrictive form is highly questionable and excludes obviously gay people from our community for an actually honorable behaviour - giving live to new human being. We also cannot make an actually existing sexual activities of a person to be a criterion of "gayness" - instead, a self-estimation as "homosexual" shall suffice, so long no opposite behavior is proving something contrarily.

My political schooling is almost exclusively European (though I am a canadian).Thus quite unlike the one of our idealistic US and American colleagues.How are we to assess the probable and future course of action of other political actors ? As a disciple of Machiavelli (among others),I`d answer: on the sole basis of their earthly interests,in that totally disregarding religion,ethics,morals and personal sentiments.

K6

K6

  • Guest
Re: Kingdom of Fridet
« Reply #15 on: Thu, Dec 08, 2005, 23:38 »

K6, you are definitely wrong.  You think by establishing Homosexuality as a Race (such as Jews) will give us more equality or rights.

Equality of rights is something to be pursued by someone else than my humble self.The aim I am associated with is complete geopolitical independence for us gays.Since I believe in the just and clean cause of which I am a mere servant and instrument,I do not mind at all people who seek equality of rights.If they achieve their goal,gay political independence will no longer be necessary.But they do not have an unlimited amount
of time to succeed,whereas radicals like my humble self have all the time to do the same.I do not think that gays are a race or even a national
group.They rather fell into an international category,with corresponding means of action,both in space and in time.

K6

fridet

  • Forum member
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10
  • Forward Now!
    • Fridet
Re: Kingdom of Fridet
« Reply #14 on: Thu, Dec 08, 2005, 19:07 »

K6, you are definitely wrong.  You think by establishing Homosexuality as a Race (such as Jews) will give us more equality or rights.  Equality should be no matter who you are, or who you define yourself.   Sexual Orientation is interesting, because you have Gay Jews, Gay Blacks, Gay Whites, Gay Asian, Gay Poor, Gay Rich, Gay Dumbs, Gay Smarts.  Homosexuality does not limit itself to a select group of people that ever can be grouped together.  That is one of the things I LOVE about the Gay Community.  Diversity within Diversity.  You say we need to define our "race" or "group".  That is wrong. What is next? Are you gonna force people to join your group?  OR better yet, the State of South Carolina will legalize the expulsion (to our now independent Gay Republic) all Gays & Lesbians.

I am going from the Basement Up.  I am getting together a group of like minded people.  Getting financial backing.  We will then purchase a land mass/islands probably with some consultation.  We will then build infrastructure and then move.  We will declare independence.  Obviously we will have a police force to guard the peace, and protections against foreign intrusion.

K6

  • Guest
Re: Kingdom of Fridet
« Reply #13 on: Thu, Dec 08, 2005, 18:41 »

It seems to me that the construction of a gay gepolitical entity should start with the basement rather than with the roof.First by defining who is a citizen and what are his tasks as a agent and instrument of gay political independence.By confining ourselves to what we hold for certain  - gay individuals - and cannot be deprived of by any foreign power,we would not exceed our present means.If we try now to go beyond,by setting up bodies and performing tasks which ressemble too much an elaborate state organisation,we offer targets which could be engaged and liquidated,without our being able to do anything to defend them.In other terms,we should confine ourselves what is possible in the historic
times we are living.Politics,after all,is the art of the possible.As for the definition of who is gay,we needed none or could rest content with a broad one only insofar as we did not intended to go beyond coexistence - if possible with the equality of rights - with non-gays.In the case of a secession,
we will need people capable of making of it a reality.With people of mixed loyalties,tied to interests and reservations which to me are essentially heterosexual,not only will we not achieve or retain political independence: we will encounter opposition to it even before we have achieved it.

K6

Mogul

  • Viktor Zimmermann
  • Administrator
  • Guru
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 691
Re: Kingdom of Fridet
« Reply #12 on: Thu, Dec 08, 2005, 15:51 »

It is possible at any stage to "declare independence", though no one can tell the future or what would happen If such were to happen.  It generally depends on what country it invovles.

This is surely true. Generally, any declaration of independence makes sense only if the newly-independent people is willing and able to actually exercise an "effective control" upon the territory it's claiming. It means, the newly-independent people administrates the territory and citizens on it's own, makes the laws and is able to enforce them, raises and spends money and pays no tribute to any foreign power. The sovereignty also means, than no citizen can be arrested by any foreign power and be brought outside of the country without permission of the legitimate government. Now, the declaration of independence makes therefore no sense if the government/administration is not able to guarantee the actual sovereignty (or lead the people into an armed conflict to defend one's sovereignty). Therefore any real effort to create a new country must involve political considerations about the consequences and the ways to guarantee the existence of the state before issuing bold declarations. At the same time, the establishing of a new country as such is nothing unusual, as we have seen in the last decades: Timor-Leste, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina and so on. Even Abchasia and Taiwan, though not recognized, are de-facto independent states and execute effective controll over their territories (thanks to military support of Russia resp. USA, however). As a small folk it's helpfull to have mighty allies, ours could be some of the liberal democratic countries like Canada or the EU. However, international recognition is not a required criterion to form an independent nation - the effective control and means of self-defence is suffice fully.

It is possible to enforce right now certain key aspects of political independence and sovereignty,but not to the point of setting up a complete
state apparatus.We may for instance delineate on maps and then merely use on site a territory as a state would do it in certain respects,without
official or internationally recognized title of possession.One of the first acts of a politically separate and independent human community consists in
defining who are its members,and sorting out nationals from foreigners. Since such a differenciation does not really involve any physical act,it does not lend itself to any physical opposition either.Religious jews have done that for the last 3,000 years,that is having a definition of who is a jew, without having an independent state of theirs for most of that time. [..]

Possibilities you are describing are of course the way we can begin to solidify the community. However, I see a certain confusion on the proper use of term "state" while you actually mean "people". A "state" has authority and means to exercise power towards it's citizens, e.g. to enforce law and revenues flow, detain criminals and so on. How do you imagine performing of such actions on the territory of existing states without annexing their territory? Any activism in such a direction is undoubtedly a severe criminal behavior and will be not tolerated by any authorities! Sure, such structures do exist, they are called "state in state" (mafia, yakuza and the like)...

If we are describing the LGBT-people as a folk, it is quite another thing. We could legally organize us, raise money as membership dues and spend this money for purposes are good for our people. As a diasporic people/nation we would not differ in this relation from any other diasporic folk, such as Armenians or Jews or Chicanas. Indeed, many of such institution already exist, but unfortunately in a very rudimentary extent, if we consider the huge number of humans who fall into the Queer categorie.

But you are touching also another very interesting question, namely who does belong to the Queer People and who does not. I think, too many of the micronationalists tend (unfortunately) to claim the exclusive right upon the queer population without asking the people. Whereas it is fully legitimate to talk about the "Queer People" and "LGBT-community" from scientific point of view, it is absolutely unacceptable to regard someone automatically as citizen or claim the exclusive representation for the entire "gay tribe", whatever it can be. For example, the deceased "Gay and Lesbian Kingdom of the Coral Sea" was acting somewhat like it was the sole legitimate representative of the gay community on the world stage, as well as the "Gay and Lesbian Commonwealth Kingdom" does in it's ORDINANCE OF CITIZENSHIP: "All Gays and Lesbians are automatically citizens of the COMMONWEALTH KINGDOM by birthright". I also remember that in a contribution "Who is Gay?" on the alt.politics.homosexuality forum dated 1 Feb. 1998 you (K6) have suggested to deprive gay men with descendants of their gay citizenship rights:

"Parenthood should be a factor in deciding who is gay and who isn`t. Alledged gay parents are,to all intents and purposes,part of hetro continuity,history and supremacy through their mostly heterosexual descendants.They have deliberately excluded homosexuality from the lives of other human beings of their own flesh and blood,by bringing and rearing them into a world where no individual has an honest and fair chance to become gay".

You shall admit, this notion to determine who is "truly gay" in such a restrictive form is highly questionable and excludes obviously gay people from our community for an actually honorable behaviour - giving live to new human being. We also cannot make an actually existing sexual activities of a person to be a criterion of "gayness" - instead, a self-estimation as "homosexual" shall suffice, so long no opposite behavior is proving something contrarily.
Generally, I think the answer to the question of who is sufficiently gay will be not that much easy and shall be discussed more intensely. Even the Jewish people have a set of detailed regulations on the subject of Jewish peoplehood, we probably would need something like this too. But, no matter how detailed such guildlines will be, there always will be some cases, where the decision will be made by simple common sense. Far more delicate question is e.g. how to treat bisexuals? In doubt, I personally tend to a more generous (inclusive) definitions.
 :=SU
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin

K6

  • Guest
Re: Kingdom of Fridet
« Reply #11 on: Thu, Dec 08, 2005, 08:06 »

Honestly, who of us small-town boys actually does live in the same places like our parents? Come on, it would be not that much difference for them!

Political independence as an attitude (and not as a state as yet) should not modify our personal relations with non-gays anymore than with any foreigners in respects other than sexual orientation.The change occurs only at the level of relations which are of a political nature.

K6

K6

  • Guest
Re: Kingdom of Fridet
« Reply #10 on: Thu, Dec 08, 2005, 07:46 »

I disagree.  It is possible at any stage to "declare independence", though no one can tell the future or what would happen If such were to happen.  It generally depends on what country it invovles.

It is possible to enforce right now certain key aspects of political independence and sovereignty,but not to the point of setting up a complete
state apparatus.We may for instance delineate on maps and then merely use on site a territory as a state would do it in certain respects,without
official or internationally recognized title of possession.One of the first acts of a politically separate and independent human community consists in
defining who are its members,and sorting out nationals from foreigners.Since such a differenciation does not really involve any physical act,it does
not lend itself to any physical opposition either.Religious jews have done that for the last 3,000 years,that is having a definition of who is a jew,
without having an independent state of theirs for most of that time.The micronation of which I am myself a member (*),and which was founded in 1977,has a precise definition of who is gay since 1979 (amended in 1991) based upon the displayed sexual orientation of the individual.We may call this acting like a state,while categorically denying being one.With the advent of modern communication systems like the internet,we may conduct international political relations,which is done in the context of the hobby called micronationalism and in proper micronational forums.

(*) Gay Parallel Republic (GPR).Participation in micronational forums since october 15,1998.In alt.politics.micronations since january 18,2005,
mostly in French and in Spanish (some activity in English).The micronationalist crowd is most often educated,does not mind about our being gay,and has so far and most of the time left the GPR act just like any other participant in the hobby of micronationalism.The national group which seems the most interested and involved in micronationalism is the Brazilian one.In Europe,there exists micronations in such places like France,Germany and Poland.

fridet

  • Forum member
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10
  • Forward Now!
    • Fridet
Re: Kingdom of Fridet
« Reply #9 on: Thu, Dec 08, 2005, 03:29 »

I disagree.  It is possible at any stage to "declare independence", though no one can tell the future or what would happen If such were to happen.  It generally depends on what country it invovles.  For example the US would probably make it very diffucult, however a more Liberal Country with more rights might seem a problem in trying to the right thing and pleasing the electorate (people that wouldn't want to see imperialist or dictator type activity or any violence).  It all depends, and I'm gonna try along with like minded people.  Fridet allready has citizens that are geared toward this, it will probably take time but we will get there.

K6

  • Guest
Re: Kingdom of Fridet
« Reply #8 on: Thu, Dec 08, 2005, 02:49 »

Hello and welcome!

Why not possible? Vatican exists very well, the East-Indian company was prospering also for a pretty long time... Just imagine such a country to be an organization with territory without foreign rule - it's possible, but, of course, not easy to establish.

Establishing now a gay independent state is impossible.It could be done only during some interregnum,when some existing empire or state would be disintegrating,and provided then that the appropriate gay organisation had been created for that purpose long in advance.What we can do here is only preparatory work in the form of debates,which if saveguarded could be of use to those gays of some future generation who shall seek and achieve independence in a geopolitical form.We could also contemplate the possibility of political simulations,as they do in the context of the hobby called micronationalism.As a gay,I see political independence much the same way as our mere ordinary existence right now,that is as something we are owing and which we must ow to no one else but to ourselves.

K6

Mogul

  • Viktor Zimmermann
  • Administrator
  • Guru
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 691
Re: Kingdom of Fridet
« Reply #7 on: Thu, Dec 08, 2005, 00:07 »

Hello and welcome!

I think a "Gay Homeland" is not fully possible.  It would be reverse discrimination towards our Hetro friends and families, some that have worked hard in our behalf.  Rather we should create a Kingdom or Republic based on Freedom for All.  A Country that supports Gays worldwide.

Why not possible? Vatican exists very well, the East-Indian company was prospering also for a pretty long time... Just imagine such a country to be an organization with territory without foreign rule - it's possible, but, of course, not easy to establish. First of all, one should have a sufficient amount of people who are ready and willing to participate in such an enterprise, and then one must find a country where one can purchase land under condition of independency or at least self-rule. Sure, such a country isn't designed for our large family - but hey, we are oppressed, they are not! If one desires to visit the family, one shall buy an airplane ticket and make a trip to them (or they come for a visit). Honestly, who of us small-town boys actually does live in the same places like our parents? Come on, it would be not that much difference for them!

 :=SU
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin

K6

  • Guest
Re: Kingdom of Fridet
« Reply #6 on: Wed, Dec 07, 2005, 02:37 »

You are 100% flawed, in your statement about wishing no harm for future Gay Generations.

I will not,before future gay generations who are my sole judges,recommend them to remain forever under foreign heterosexual domination.

K6

Fridet

  • Guest
Re: Kingdom of Fridet
« Reply #5 on: Wed, Dec 07, 2005, 02:29 »

You are 100% flawed, in your statement about wishing no harm for future Gay Generations.  The only way to have a "perfect" live for future Gay Generations is to eradicate discrimination and have equality in EVERY country in the world.  (See hope.fridet.org).  Gays will continue to be BORN accross the globe, not only in the Gay Republic or Fridet.  So in fact, work must be done in Countries around the World.

I do think a Gay Republic or Kingdom can help in that regards though (So I think you are in the right track).  I wish I could immigrate somewhere (that didn't take 2 years, and then half the population hate you anyways) that was supportive of me and my partner, so that we could live together.   And I wish you good luck in the Gay Republic, and the Kingdom of Fridet will support diplomatically any gay kingdom built on Democracy and Human Rights.  I guess we are doing things for similar reasons.  I just beleive society should be free for all.

Obviously the Kingdom of Fridet cannot take away the rights of it citizens.  I am gay, and the Constitution forbids discrimination against gays in any way, including marriage.  The King in Fridet has 3 Jobs one of which is Defender of the Rights (I can step in on Humanitary Issues, Human Rights.  I can repel laws that go against the Spirit of the Constitution, though I can't create any laws (except under Immigration).

What is the Kingdom of Fridet doing?  Right now we are finishing the Constitution and Law Framework.  Democratic Elections will happen 4 years after Independence.  This is to ensure stability and provide a legal framework to abide by.  We are also working on getting financial backing (as well as saving out of every pay check) to procure an Island (prefered settlement area) and savings (For eventually Housing, Wind Power, Water, Food, etc).   We will then aquire an Island, construct buildings and infrastructure.  We will the move unto the Islands in one force (Current Citizens) and then Declare Independent (and hope for the best).

K6

  • Guest
Re: Kingdom of Fridet
« Reply #4 on: Wed, Dec 07, 2005, 00:11 »

Creating a Society just on the notion of Homosexuality is flawed.  What will the principles of this Nation/Kingdom/Republic be?   I am a Homosexaul and that is not the only aspect of my life.  And not all the hurt and pain in my life has been because I am gay.

I have no choice but to remain,alongside my own generation,under foreign heterosexual rule.On another hand,I would not choose or recommend such a fate for the gay generations to come.Not that I see upon reflexion political independence as something superior to the equality of rights.Both can be taken away.But the risk of trying to take away political independence is greater,since it involves war.There is no risk involved in abolishing the equality of rights.The little we know about past history,insofar as it concerns us gays,is that there were at times periods of tolerance which ended without our being able to do anything about it.Since there is no past experience of political independence in our case,we must rely on heterosexual national examples and models.The one which impressed me the most was the parallel underground state set up by the poles right after the invasion and occupation of their country by the germans and the soviets in 1939.It is well described in the book "Story of a secret state" by Jan Karsky.So fascinating was the historical experience of the poles in their quest for independence that I went so far as learning their language in order to learn and know what was in their brains which made them so stubborn and singleminded
about their self-determination.

K6

Fridet

  • Guest
Re: Kingdom of Fridet
« Reply #3 on: Tue, Dec 06, 2005, 17:16 »

The only issue in Society is NOT Discriminations agianst Gays.  Rather, this is an effect of a multitude of problems that are deep rooted in our societies, so which are better than others.   We must cause more strife by discriminating.  We must rather look at the deep rooted issues of Selfish Societies, and the Real Truth in History.   Somehow we must create a society that at the end of the day actually cares for its citizens, unlike any other society I beleive currently exists.

I also beleive we must create a society where Hate Speech is not allowed, even under the cloax of Religion.  A society with opinions, but not allowing those opinions to be used as an excuse to hurt a sect of society for thousands of years.

Creating a Society just on the notion of Homosexuality is flawed.  What will the principles of this Nation/Kingdom/Republic be?   I am a Homosexaul and that is not the only aspect of my life.  And not all the hurt and pain in my life has been because I am gay.

K6

  • Guest
Re: Kingdom of Fridet
« Reply #2 on: Tue, Dec 06, 2005, 00:23 »


The Gay Parallel Republic (GPR),which has a regular activity in the usenet forum of alt.politics.micronations,cannot entirely exclude a scenario of complete secession from heterosexuals,in the context of a country of ours demographically based on immigration,multiculturalism and international gay solidarity,and on the basis of gay self-determination as well.Countless past generations of gays who have suffered for existence and self-determination now ask us not to blink in this hour of truth.

K6

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4   Go Up