Dear Jeff,
as you wish me to explain my views more detailed, I will try to respond to your question in the best way I can. Though basically posted in this forum, my suggestions are not sufficiently deliberated yet as to be presented in a capacious book; this dereliction of duty I will try to adjust later. For the first, I shall make some things clear and then address some of the controversal topics.
In the preface I wish to ask you, if I may, to lay down the prejudices agains the project I am pleadging for, as these prejudices cause you to overlook the fine details of my statements, details which are essential for correct understanding of the idea. Much of your criticism comes from unjustifiably generalization of my suggestions concerning the gay state, a project which is a
partial solution addressing certain problems which can not be solved by convential gay rights activism. This is
not a general solution, suitable to solve each and every problem of the gay people. No need to mention that the deliberations concerning these two very different cases might lead to significantly different conclusions, therefore we are very often talking at cross purposes.
Where shall I begin? For the first, let me assure that I am neither an optimist, nor a pessimist. My world view is largely determined by the sense for human history and the developements it is going through the millenia – with rise and fall of states, cultures and entire civilizations. Where once a high culture existed, we face barbary now; were once a barbary was, is the cultural center of the modern civilisation. Nothing is of eternal duration, neither periods of decay, nor the golden ages. Correct analysis of current situation should not cloud our vision in the long term and be aware of possible future developements. You, as a declared optimist seem to trust into the linear progress of the humankind, whereas I think of the progress in form of a helix. As this is a matter of beliefs, we must agree to disagree at this place.
The second thing which I wish to make clear is my views on nationalism. The modern scholars of nationalism generally agree, that the conception of nationalism has changed since the end of the WWII. It is not anymore a matter of superiority of one nation in comparison to others, but rather a consensus that every nation (or a people) has a right for self-determination. Therefore most nationalists of our days do not scamper against other peoples or nations, they instead emphasise the cultural uniqueness of the concerned people and argue that without a certain level of souvereignity this cultural uniqueness invariably will be lost. Whereas one can certainly discuss about the supposed urgent need to rescue any particular culture, one can't deny that at least for the nationalists these particular cultures are very precious. Therefore, in the nationalists world view, every nation should have it's own territorial state; and when this is not possible (in case of multinational / multiethnic states), at least a certain degree of self-determination must be guaranteed, e.g. through partially divergent jurisdiction or special system of representation.
I frankly admit that I am a gay nationalist – therefore my world view is different from you. Whereas an integrationalist by nature is rather intended to downplay the differences between two peoples and instead stresses the similarities, the nationalist by nature performs exactly the opposit way. It is in vain to complain about the habits of the opponents:
both are blind on one eye and it would be intellectually oblique to pretend that it wasn's like this. Nevertheless, a thoughtful representative of both parties is able to a certain degree to understand the positions and concerns of his contrahents, if practical questions are discussed. One thing which must be clear is that I of course
do not generally condemn straight people, nor do I believe that they are hostile agains us by nature. I simply came to the conclusion that our differences are that much striking, that we can rightfully conceive us as a people ("Volk") and that this Volk is worth of being preserved in ist uniquiness. I do not impose this opinion upon anybody against his/her will, but I was glad to discover that many people feel similar. I feel no urge to persuade every and each gay and lesbian to adopt my views, as this is an impossible task anyways. I simply appellate to those who share same feelings to "gather under my flag" (T. Herzl). You must admit that if a people desires to build up an identity as a Volk, one should let it proceed. Most national movement began this way.
I am well aware that many, at first probably even most homosexual people would refuse the very idea of being a Volk on ist own. Therefore I wish to make the conception of a gay nation clear through the succession of hierarchical sets of individuals, where the next one is a partial sub-set of the previous:
- humankind,
- gay/queer people in the broader sense (homosexuals, bisexuals, transgender ans transsexuals = LGBT community),
- queer nation (syn: Schwulenvolk, gay tribe etc.) – those who feel being a people (a "Volk"),
- national subjects of the gay State.
It is a matter of fact, that the self-estimation of queerness is differing much among the gay people in general: what is a minor difference for one, is a centerpiece of identity to the other. It would be foolish to assume that affiliation to a queer nation and the gay state would suit everybody, we can however discuss about the effects induced by this nation and the gay state. I believe that such a gay state could become not only place of refuge, but also an important
part of gay culture in general, catalizing the interlingual and interstatal cooperation of gay people. You suggested that an increase of homophobia could be caused by such a state – why? If the heterosexuals are that much sagacious as you believe they are, there should be no problem at all. We in no way would discriminate more against straights than, let's say Vatican discriminates against US-citizens. They can visit us as much they want, and we would be glad to make business with the rest of the world and cooperate with them where it appears necessary and of good purpose. We simply would make clear that our little territorial ressources and the peculiar state idea do not allow us to naturalize larger numbers of straight people. Not the existence of a gay homeland would stir up homophobia, but on contrary homophobia makes gay state first required.
The national subjects of the gay state will consist of naturalized affiliates of queer nation (see the definition above), independently from any actual residency on the territory of the gay state. The citizens should be free to decide whether they surrender their prior nationality or keep dual citizenship (usefull for those in diaspora). The activities of the government of a gay stay would probably include, but not restrict oneself to:
- domestic administration of the territory and defense,
- funding of gay-related cultural projects in the homeland and in diaspora,
- identity formation policy measures, especially for youngsters among the queer/gay people in the broader sense,
- protection of citizens and affiliates abroad,
- home-taking of persecuted affiliates,
- coordination of activities to strengthen the bonds between the State and Diaspora,
- diplomatic activities on behalf of the queer/gay people in the broader sense.
Straight and bisexual immigrants can be allowed as residents in a limited degree (but regularly not as citizens). The question of nationality of inborn straight children is not satisfactory solved yet, thought there is a variety of practical and human solutions in discussion (
here and
here).
As you can see, the gay state would, as proposed, in no way directly interfere with the interests of integrationalists amongst the queer/gay people in the broader sense. Any legislation or immediate governmental activity of the gay state would affect solely its citizens and affiliates of this entity. However, the gay state would probably try to influence the local and world politics in a way, promising benefits to the entire LGBT community.
If you have some questions, critic or suggestions to the above formulated principles, I will be glad to read and answer them.
Now I would like to take position to some of your previously formulated points. It might appear that I do not give them sufficient attention, but most of them actually are based on the above mentioned philosophical differences and the naturally differing emphasis on positive vs. negative developements. Apparently we know the same facts but value them differently: where you see generall world-wide progresses with minor imperfections, I see a world-wide prevalency of homophobia with temporary and locally limited positive developements. Well, who of us is right? I would say there is more than one reality, depending on the rank of values one has incorporated in the course of one's life. Asked about our likeness to the virtued middle-class married and decent heterosexuals, or to a prostitute swish with all his insufficiencies and infertility, we probably would position us in a different way.
And now some even vaguer assertion that you don't view it as threat because its occurrence, in your eyes, would be below a significant percentile. But what does this mean? If it proved to grow above a certain percentile you WOULD view it as a threat? Would you then oppose it? Allow it? What?
Here the misunderstanding origines from unjustifiably generalization of what I have actually said. Whilst I was clearly talking about the
gay state, you are assuming that I am talking about the
entire gay world. No need to mention that the deliberations in this two very different cases must lead to significantly different conclusions. The accurate quotation of my position were:
Through all our discussions in this forum I constantly propagated the idea that in any future gay state it should be a basic human right of citizens to have children, if they wish so. I also do not regard any gay parenting as a serious danger for such a state – simply because the effect would be below any percentile significance, in my eyes.
Indeed, if many citizens of a
territorial gay state would start bearing a significant amount of children, this state would be in danger to loose its nature as a gay state. No doubt, there would severe controversies arise among citizens about how to deal with such a situation – either to expel the straight children or surrender the idea of the gay state at all and become one state like any other. The first solution would be cruel, the second would be the end of the very idea of a gay state and I were a fool to accept it as satisfying. Therefore I have expressed various ideas in other posts how the situation can be managed in a half-way civilized way:
http://forum.gayrepublic.org/index.php?topic=32.msg143#msg143http://forum.gayrepublic.org/index.php?topic=32.msg145#msg145I am forced to quote myself (18.05.2005) to make clear
how wrong you are about my views:
The problem which I see, is rather of a different nature: what these poor heterosexual kids will do when they discover their own sexuality and will find no adequate partners? This is something which would be a source of discomfort for them and probably drive them to look for a better place in the world, without any pressure or harassment. This would cause their parents and friends certain pain and grief, but this is something what all parents go through, as the kids are generally looking for fortune far away from mama's home. We should keep in mind, that the democratic wealthy world is growing together economically and socially, and the chances for a straight kid to study and work abroad are pretty good. Those who will stay, will be treated heartily and hopefully become "usefull members of society", as all adults expect kids to be.

Well, let's go on:
The fact that the social climate has improved for homosexuals over the past 50 years is no accident. It coincides with the formation and growth of an organized and active gay rights movement. While homosexuals have certainly existed all through history, and same-sex relations have been tolerated at certain times and in certain areas, to my knowledge there has never been anything remotely close to the gay rights movement we have today. So yes, I do use the past half century or so as the basis of my argument. What do you prefer to use, the preceding millennia when there was no such gay rights movement?
I prefer to use the experiences gathered over millenia. There might have been no gay rights movement before, but there were gay rights, as well as same-sex marriage. Yes, there are progresses in some
western countries (who has ever denied that fact?), but in the rest of the world (especially in Africa and the Middle East) the governments have in the same 50 years increased the punishments for homosexuality – including death penalty. And this is a trend which is as well continuing, especially in the last 5 years.
The past couple years have seen legalized gay marriage in Spain, Canada, and Massachusetts (a hugely important foothold in the USA). It has simultaneously seen civil unions legalized in England and Connecticut - an institution many people regard as either marriage under another name, or as a stepping stone towards marriage. The state of California nearly passed gay marriage as well - with only the governor's veto preventing it. This is remarkable progress in a relatively short time. Some people choose to downplay this and instead focus on the comparatively insignificant negative developments. The constitutional bans on gay marriage, for instance - which though unfortunate, I agree, took nothing away from gays that they previously weren't already deprived of. They simply added another impediment, which itself can be - and will be - overturned in the future. So in balance, there's been a significant net gain for gay rights globally.
Certainly it is a very good success if gay people can marry. Who ever denied that? Yes, in Massachussets it's possible to marry, but these marriages are not recognezed in the rest of the country, isn't this true? In Spain it is possible to marry as well - but try to walk through Madrid in a late evening, keeping hands with your boyfriend. No doubt it will be an experience you will never forget.
The developement in the US, as far as I can jugge it, does not justify your thesis of quick preogress with "insignificant negative developments". It is to wish for the Americans that they re-gain their democracy back, but what is happening now is an obvious conservative counter-revolution. In a country where millions of people devote significant amount of their time and money in order to "fight homosexual agenda" it is very doubtfull, if the achieved successes could be sustained. I remember you on the fate of the ban of death penalty. Any explicit constitutional ban on same-sex marriage is not solely a minor nuisance, but instead homophobia put to the level of a state goal. The practical effects will be an increasing numbers of fag bashings, as all the bullies will feel encouraged through the state.
Is it enough? No, of course not. There are still people being murdered and executed for being gay. But it is an overall improvement, not an overall deterioration. And there is no valid reason (certainly no reason I've read in this forum) to believe this overall improvement will not continue. And, in time, this improvement will inevitably reach the more oppressive societies as their own gay rights movements take root and grow - hopefully aided by the more advantaged homosexuals elsewhere. Global economic, cultural, and technological forces will continue to penetrate national borders, making this improvement a near certainty. You cannot accurately gauge the future of gay people by overly dwelling on how they were treated in past epochs. The limited, confined social and political order of those past periods no longer exists in much of the modern world, and the pockets where it still does will eventually disappear. Here again, with all due respect, you seem to be out of step with the times.
Don't get me wrong – all the achieved progresses are wonderfull and a result of hard work by many gay rights activists. But these remarkable progresses do not represent any global developement like you are suggesting. They are what they are – partial liberalisation within the western civilization – not less and not more. What makes you so sure that
especially our generation is living on the breach of times? Does
anything in the world politics back your thesis about the golden age from now on and till the end of the time? More and more countries come into posession of nuclear weapons, militarization of space is just a question of time, AIDS is depopulating entire landscapes in Africa, the climatic change will pretty soon result in wars for water – and so on. The recent invasion of Iraque proves how little political insight the so-called "leaders of the free world" posess and suggest little good for the future in general. To prevent your objections: Yes, I am aware that life in North America and in Europe is very comfortable and fool of plesure, but does this change anything on the above facts? I wish I could share your optimism, but I cann't.
It is true that some theaters in Utah refused to show ‘Brokeback Mountain.' But it is also true that this decision (though heartily approved in some quarters) was received overall with ridicule and disapproval. That point, Vicky, you failed to mention as well. It's always critical to look at the overall picture in order to accurately gauge our situation. If one doesn't, than you are in constant danger of distorting reality; and in extreme cases of even falling into a form of paranoia.
Paranoia? May be. May be not – I could as well suggest you of being an ostrich, but you probably would not like the comparison. Do you seriously expect from a gay rights activist to explain on each and every step that "there are of course not only violations of our civil and human rights, but also remarkable progresses and actualy we get beaten up not that often like 20 years ago". Please forgive me the irony, but I find it grotesque to insist on talking about things which we finally were permitted to do or to posess, when at the same time there is so much to fight for. Beg you pardon, when some of the movies would refuse to show "Schindler's list" in similar manner, would you be the same way calm and considerate? So why not be the same way resolute when gays are the one oppressed? I truly do not understand this decency, Jeff – and I try hard.
Let me be clear. It's not so much that the concept of a gay nation is in and of itself bad, it's that it's impossible to achieve without discouraging gay parenting and procreation - which means, it must therefore discourage full gay development. This is what I object to. [..] This approach is not going to convince folks to change their minds. You are contemplating a major project. Your rational behind it has got to be rock solid. Currently, it is not. It is quite weak. And don't forget who's writing this. I'm someone who wrote a book advocating gay-majority communities. It should be quite telling that thus far you've been unable to convince even ME of the merits of a gay nation.
Jeff, in no way do I disregard your critics – insofar they meet the point. Of course it is difficult to critic a project accurately when there is no elaborately written and comprehensive treatise on the idea. But may be it is worth then to wait with generallized critics of
assumed positions? Also it seems to me that especially authors of specific theories (like your pleadge for gay procreation) are by times somewhat reluctant to acknowledge other people's ideas, if they do not exactly match their own theories. In a generally loving society with sexual identity/orientation being no issue, cross-couple kids were certainly an enrichment for the parents, no matter gay or straight. In such society gay culture would have no reason to exist, either.
The idea of gay procreation does seem for some reason to have provoked you, particularly the view that gay procreation marks an advancement in gay development. I tried to clearly and briefly state my case supporting this.
The idea of gays reproducing themself is not especially provoking for me, but the notion that it should be a
generall advancement of the gay people is not a favorit of mine. Those who wish it should do it, but claims on advanced developement are at least disputable. The realities of gay people are very different on this planet, and I am most sure that many of them would feel encouraged by your theses. But ones with differing realities, especially the less fortunate ones who must flee their countries, could be served the best with a prosperious gay homeland and a government willing and able to protect them. A cooperation with a vital and well-organized diaspora would additionally provide us stronger legitimacy on the international arena.
Besides, yesterday ILGA's application for joining the UN's Economic and Social Council was refused with voices of e.g. USA, Iran, Zimbabwe, China, Cameroon. 2700 NGO's are reported to be officially accredited at the UN, not a single one of them representing the interests of homosexuals.