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International gay cooperation and solidarity

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Sage:
The subject of this thread makes it a good place to ask if anyone has followed up on the request for help with copying and pasting the self determination statement in any social media comment sections yet?

K6:

--- Quote from: Mogul on Mon, Apr 24, 2006, 00:08 ---I have grown up in a communist regime, and untill the age of 16 was a verwent socialist myself - no wunder, considering the propagandistic efforts of the state. The cardinal mistake of such systems is the necessity to limit the debate - because how else can one defend a state doctrin which has severe deficiencies? The limitation of the debate, and subsequent censoreship necessarily cause intellectual poverty among the broader leadership - we all know the consequences.

--- End quote ---

I have observed twice communist regimes on site and in action.A few things in them did impressed me.Some others either left me completely indifferent,or inspired me only irony and contempt.Some aspects of these regimes did fool me,like their police apparatus.I could not imagine that such regimes,apparently so well armed,could collapse so quickly.Lastly,and at the time I became a gay separatist (70s),marxism had an important following in the part of the world where I live.None of these communist gentlemen wanted to move to a communist country however.Which led me to conclude that political power was their real motive,and marxist ideology only a pretext.

K6

K6:

--- Quote from: Mogul on Mon, Apr 24, 2006, 00:08 ---The case of pre-war France is but one example of possible weakness of democracy - Weimar Germany is another one. However, it was not the democratic order that caused the troubles - the countries leadership and populations were simply entrapped in wrong state of minds.

--- End quote ---

The democratic system is the best to administer a country in conditions of plenty and under quiet international circumstances.Its decisional procedures and humanitarian concerns may however be no match in agitated and dangerous times on the world`s stage,when the independence of the nation-State is at stake.Or when the issue is precisely to create a new State.Obstacles of a human nature will eventually be encountered by us,which will not always lend themselves to good old liberal solutions or methods of political action.

K6

Mogul:

--- Quote from: K6 on Sun, Apr 23, 2006, 23:21 ---I was born and I have lived so far under a democratic regime.I was entirely free to criticize it along with others,which didn`t left me entirely unconscious as to its limitations. [..]
--- End quote ---

I have grown up in a communist regime, and untill the age of 16 was a verwent socialist myself - no wunder, considering the propagandistic efforts of the state. The cardinal mistake of such systems is the necessity to limit the debate - because how else can one defend a state doctrin which has severe deficiencies? The limitation of the debate, and subsequent censoreship necessarily cause intellectual poverty among the broader leadership - we all know the consequences.


--- Quote from: K6 on Sun, Apr 23, 2006, 23:21 ---[..] its limitations.First,it doesn`t exist everywhere as I was able to see for myself by traveling abroad.Second,it is rather recent,
since one doesn`t encounter much democracy in action and in history books.It is not a very heroic political system,notably in its social-democratic
form with which I am the most familiar. [..]
--- End quote ---

The oldest democracy I am familiar with is the Athenian democracy. This was a very well-going direct democracy, a model which is unfortunately not very practicable in modern societies. "Every nation has the government it deserves" - a very true statement. A herd of sheep are best governed by an absolute monarch and a small aristocracy, whereas a civil society with well-educated and mature citizens is best served by democracy. The democratic government stands and falls with its institutions and the readiness of citizens to participate in the political process.

To quote Wikipedia:

"A good example of the contempt the first democrats felt for those who did not participate in politics can be found in the modern word 'idiot' that finds its origins in the ancient Greek word ἰδιώτης (idiōtēs) meaning a private person, a person who is not actively interested in politics; such characters were talked about with contempt and the word eventually acquired its modern meaning."

It is therefore the duty of political elites to enhance the education level of citizens and to create a positive climate of considering political rights a privilege, and not a burden. The current developements in many countries, namely the purposeful spread of idioty among citizens, resembles the decay of Roman Republic - with the intent to depriove the people from power and to transfer it to the hands of few.


--- Quote from: K6 on Sun, Apr 23, 2006, 23:21 ---[..] More or less,he says that the country (in his case,France) is to be saved from foreign domination,and it is a most regrettable thing that the bunch of its "saviors" will have in the end to step down and restore democracy in power,even if it is democracy itself which was the original cause of the dowfall of the State.After we have established an independent State of our own,liberals in it will be free to play their little ritual and/or idealistic games.Some liberals might be no match against perils of the foreign and international environment,in which case certain other people will replace them temporarily. [..]
--- End quote ---

The case of pre-war France is but one example of possible weakness of democracy - Weimar Germany is another one. However, it was not the democratic order that caused the troubles - the countries leadership and populations were simply entrapped in wrong state of minds. Athenian democracy was as succesfull a military power as the Spartan monarchy - with overwhelmingly higher culture and wealth. The high art of politics will be to find the right place of action for any particular politician or strateg.

K6:

--- Quote from: Mogul on Sun, Apr 23, 2006, 21:54 ---This is a very satisfying statement - it makes at the end no difference out of what motivations one makes the right thing. In my view, the state is the expression of the collective interest of the people - to serve the common needs of the people. In a totalitarian regime the state quickly turns out to serve interests of the clique at power - and against the people. It is good that we agree upon that point.

--- End quote ---

I was born and I have lived so far under a democratic regime.I was entirely free to criticize it along with others,which didn`t left me entirely unconscious as to its limitations.First,it doesn`t exist everywhere as I was able to see for myself by traveling abroad.Second,it is rather recent,
since one doesn`t encounter much democracy in action and in history books.It is not a very heroic political system,notably in its social-democratic
form with which I am the most familiar.Democracy could lead the State to its downfall,and produce the individuals just for that.But my impression
in the case of democracy is that the downfall will only be temporary,for democracy will also produce the individuals required to reestablish the independence of the State.Whereas the downfall of such totalitarian States like Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union was irretrievable.In his War Memories,General De Gaule comments contemptuously on the limitations of the parlimentary democratic system.More or less,he says that the country (in his case,France) is to be saved from foreign domination,and it is a most regrettable thing that the bunch of its "saviors" will have in the end to step down and restore democracy in power,even if it is democracy itself which was the original cause of the dowfall of the State.After we have established an independent State of our own,liberals in it will be free to play their little ritual and/or idealistic games.Some liberals might be no match against perils of the foreign and international environment,in which case certain other people will replace them temporarily.

K6

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