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lianghh

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Re: gay homeland
« Reply #47 on: Sun, Sep 05, 2010, 02:03 »

A queer nation, yes please!

Adriano_tv83

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Re: gay homeland
« Reply #46 on: Fri, Jun 27, 2008, 11:41 »

I carry here an intervention posted in another thread of GLR:

I must say that in Italy most people (even gay people) have no idea of what "gay nationalism" is. People often answer about gay ghettos (gay bars, gay discos, gay pride etc.): -have you ever seen a "black pride"? Or a "muslim pride"? Or discos only for blaks and muslims?- Well, in Italy we'e got a "Family day" against "Gay pride" to "fight against the people who wants to destroy the natural society through innatural couples"! Such Family day has been helepd econonmically by teh CEI (Italian Conference of Bishops) and the Holy See.

A gay nations, it's very hard to realize today if we ask a place and not an "extraterritorial nation"... Vatican docet. The Holy See is structured like a true nation but her territory is not significative. Look how they work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_See.
The main organisms are set in Vatican city, then there are manies headquarters in every nation. Why don't use in a smarter way strategies and instruments they used to persecute gay people? A gay man or woman could choose to have "gay nationality" even continuing to live in his/her original country and have full access to "gay national services" in the headquaters of the nation they live... receive help, assitance etc. It would be mainly a diplomacy job so:

1) Being gay AND safe with fully recognized rights would not means move from an homeland and part of the society we belong to. Even who would rexist to the idea of a "gay nation" for such reasons could choose to accept it.
2) Maybe gays are not people for genetically reasons but we have a different way to interact with world and society.
3) Techniques allow us to have children through surrogacy... what the problem is? We an grow our children maybe they wouldn't obtain a gay citizenship if thei're straight. I don't think it would be a problem for them and even for families of gay people who are interested only in keeping tehir son or daughter close to them and see him/her happy.
4-5) Israel is Israel, it's born for a real need and built over a religious pretence. We can find another way to affirm a gay nation. Manies little pieces of lands in manies countries are not like a big piece of land in a single country.
6) To attak a gay nation allocated in manies countries is very very very hard... it could be made only by a worldly agreement between every single nation... it would be possible but in that circumstance we would however be swept away.
7) See n3.
8) Let us choose the best way to fight for our rights, without dening the rights of other people.

Is silly what i say?

Look, there are many ways to be a nation, isn't the Holy See a nation of priests who freely choosed to be part of that society: they have their laws, a sort of hidden citizenship. In Italy Berlusconi is preparing a law to advert the bishop of crimes committed by priests, before the public authority! We can be a nation better than their.
Pax venetiana vobis, amici. By the way, i'm not the guy in the pic.

I'm veneto (Italy) i study at university of Padua ancient languages (greek, latin) and literature. I'm panteist and indepentist (www.pnveneto.org).

Mogul

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Re: gay homeland
« Reply #45 on: Tue, Aug 28, 2007, 00:41 »

It will take a couple of days for my copy to be delivered, thus I must wait with detailed discussion of Pat's suggestions. Those who can't wait, can read the brief summary of the idea at AutorHouse website. 
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin

Feral

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Re: gay homeland
« Reply #44 on: Mon, Aug 27, 2007, 20:47 »

I would encourage anyone interested in a discussion of Gay separatism (or even the further development of Gay culture) to purchase a copy of We Don't Need Permission. It is not an expensive book by any means, particularly if it is ordered through AuthorHouse. As Stanskill points out, it is also available through Barnes and Noble and Amazon.
Stonewall was a riot.

stanskill

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Re: gay homeland
« Reply #43 on: Mon, Aug 27, 2007, 02:01 »

This has got to be the best site I have found yet. Believe me, I have been all over the net marketing my book, We Don't Need Permission: A Proposal for Homosexual Emancipation, by Pat Gaskill, listed on Barnes and Noble, Amazon.com and Borders. Published by AuthorHouse.

In this proposal, I tell my fellow American homosexuals that we should separate from the current union, and take our tax base with us. We won't see political change for us in the U.S. utill we hit the greedy money mongers in the pockets. We don't really have to coagulate in one specific geographic area. Eyes are need everywhere to see that no one is left behind. If we pull our money and resources, we can regulate whatever we choose as a people. Then we will indeed be for the people and by the people.

To grow this further, we can take a stand where we are now. Please go to the AuthorHouse bookstore and type in either the title or author, and read about the book and author for more information.

Feral

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Re: gay homeland
« Reply #42 on: Wed, Jul 18, 2007, 20:16 »

Is it always going to be a country for people fleeing persicution?
And who will be in the heterosexual countries helping young new gay and lesbians through the oppresion of being gay or lesbian in a prodominantely heterosexual country, no matter how liberal and tolerant it claims to be.

The answer to the first question would be 'yes.' If we were contemplating some bizarre experiment like a colony on Mars, this would clearly not be a functional proposition. We're not though. Straight society manages to produce a great many homosexuals year after year... they always have done. In theory, were all the world's Gays and Lesbians to congregate in one hypothetical country, that country would likely oust the US from it's rank of third most populous country on the planet (if not, the hypothetical country would easily displace Indonesia as the fourth). Of course, no one imagines ALL of the Gays anywhere will be doing anything... just some.

As for who would remain to help younger Gays in the countries of their birth -- in principle, those people who are disinclined to separatism. There are quite a lot of them. There always will be. The care and well-being of younger Gays is a question of extreme importance, though. Quite separate from any "threat" that a Gay state might pose to the availability of older mentors to young Gays is the completely inadequate provision for their care and welfare as things now stand. Were the Gay people to set their minds to providing some materially effective assistance to their younger members, the results would certainly be welcome. They've yet to do so in any significant manner. While it is conceivable that some sort of massive emigration of Gays and Lesbians might isolate younger Gays and Lesbians who have not yet determined to emigrate or who do not yet have the means to emigrate, I hardly think that isolation would amount to an increase. Gay youth are isolated now to a shameful degree. It is not possible to abandon those you have already abandoned.
Stonewall was a riot.

Mogul

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Re: gay homeland
« Reply #41 on: Wed, Jul 18, 2007, 13:07 »

We can approximately count with some 300 millions homos on this planet, and it is totally unlikely they will all move to one place. Rather the "Gay country" would resemble what Israel is to the Jewish people: a significant part of the entire community, but not the only place to live. Even if 20% of Gay population would leave their countries of origin (a totally unfounded speculation), there will be the remaining 80% to help the youngsters. Still, the best help for the young Gays and Lesbians would be to recommend them to emigrate. The more of them do, the better.

When the Gay country is established, Gay people will go there not only to flee persecution, but to experience the new quality of life. Mind you, so many people "flee" their agrarian surroundings to the cities because of the greater possibilities, and for Gays such a place would have very much to offer. Given the chance, people rarely consider their "moral duty" to stay and help others to cope with circumstances of a wicked place - on contrary, they flee as soon as possible and help the youngsters to flee as well.
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin

theangelopenshereyes

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Re: gay homeland
« Reply #40 on: Wed, Jul 18, 2007, 08:12 »

I like the idea of protected settlements, but Im not sure about the whole gay lesbian state thing. I feel practicalities like populating it has been slitghtly over looked.
Is it always going to be a country for people fleeing persicution?
And who will be in the heterosexual countries helping young new gay and lesbians through the oppresion of being gay or lesbian in a prodominantely heterosexual country, no matter how liberal and tolerant it claims to be.
Just being practical. xo

Mogul

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Re: gay homeland
« Reply #39 on: Sun, May 27, 2007, 23:17 »

"Home is where the heart is" and I am afraid that the Gay people have, in large measure, little connection to their own hearts. [..] If the Gay people can (and I suspect that they really can) "learn on the job" in some Gay state that springs from the head of Zeus like Athena, then they can also learn on the job where they are now. They do not because they are deceived into not wanting to. They think they want something else entirely. They need to be persuaded otherwise.

You might remember we have once discussed the issue of Gay Nationalism somewhere else, and I thought it necessary to stress the distinction between the "People", the "Nation" and the "State". Gays as a people is, and has always been there -- in oppressed form, acknowledged, but yet there. Our traces can be found throughout human history for millenia, no matter what the social constuctionists might wish us to believe. A people is described by an entire set of cultural habits and practices, which may vary with time, but one shall be aware that abandoned cultural practices do not die out -- they become history and part of this particular people's myths. Thus, the Gay people is of course subject of cultural change and evolution, but it is still the same people -- no matter of what skin color and geographical location. We are a people, even if a people sui generis -- a factum, which not everybody easily recognizes at once. The State, on contrary, is the least difficult to explain - any group of people in posession of sufficient power can establish a State, which is nothing else as an advanced network of individuals and institutions. The Nation is a conception which is not easily defined - basically, it is a "thought community" of individuals who consciously identify themeselves as members of this community, and act to the benefit of this community in their big and small actiones. A national interest is recognized, and issues of such national interest are considered by elites and "simple people" with equal attention. Hereby it matters little whether the fellow national is located next doar, in a foreign country, or on a ship somewhere in terra incognita -- "the Nation" takes a profound interest in his/her activities and well-being, despite all the physical distances. "The Nation" is thus a state of mind, in first line.

Currently, the Gay people are only in beginning of building nation - a spontaneous process, which can be either reinforced or disturbed by deliberate efforts of knowing individuals, insofar they have the means and grips to do so. The nation-building actually doesn't require a State behind it, since the elites and the people are very well able to conglomerate into something distantly resembling a nation on their own, solely relying on those gravitation forcel of shared culture. That's currently our weakness - this cultural gravitation pull is not yet strong enough in most Gay individuals. This has to be contributed partially to our homophobic upbringing, partially to our spacial dispersal. Like in the physical world, cultural gravitation forces seem to reciprocally depend on the distance between the bodies. The closer we come to each other, the more we get appealed by our own people. Remember what you felt when you did not know any Gay individuals in persona? There was probably not much attraction, but rather a repulsion force at work -- thanks to the stories straight people tell us about our race. The more Gay people we know and the more we actually interact with them, the more are we attracted by other Gay people. Thus, interconnection is the key requirement for building a nation. It is no coincidence, that the rise of modern nations came in the 19th century contemporaneously with the rise of mass press. The newspaper connected the eites with the middle-class, and created the common public space which is so charactiristic for all nations. We Gays, too have this public space novadays, but unfortunately it is available only to those who have access to internet, and speak any of the common business languages. Like peasants in a distant mountain village of 1850, most of our people are still cut off the nation. Additionally, many put themselves in a self-chosen isolation, or they fall prey to the nationalism movement of some other nation. Being a diasporic nation, this is, unfortunately the doom of our people -- foreign nationalism being the "default" mindset.

Can we change this? Yes, we can. Thanks to the human nature, individuals with multiple identities tend to choose the one identity as primary, which is promising most glory on the marketplace of national vanity (or national pride, if you wish). A weak nation exercises relatively little attraction on individuals struggling with their national identity, a strong nation quickly wins. We are currently an extremely weak nation with a greate potential. It means, the more Gay people actually utilize their personal potential "under the flag" of the Gay Nation, the more attracting the national identity will turn. The best thing is that most Gay people would not require to make extra efforts on the parts of utilizing their potential -- they simply are required to show flag. It's not like we had nothing to present as a nation, but many of our Nobel prize winners, famous ingeneurs and generals remain well hidden [closeted] and are mimicring themeselves under foreign flags. To persuade Gay people to love their people and be proudly Gay is an essentional step, a difficult one due to the assimilationist agenda and straight propaganda. Luckily, the tremendous cultural burden of building a nation rests upon many shoulders and we [the Foundation] are but one small piece in the whole. However, we are apparently the only ones who already grasped the process as what it is -- the nation-building.

The State, in its essence, is an advanced network of institutions and individuals. I am much more optimistic on the issue of the State than I am an the issue of the global Gay Nation. The establishing of a network depends solely on our abilities to knot the networks, the Nation can only reach those who is physically able to access national infrastucture. To put it another way: we most certainly can create our advanced network, but we will miss large portions of our people.

The State, is not about territory, even if iit is desireable to posess some. The "Gay homeland" we are speaking of, is indeed not only the city-state we have in mind. Everybody can attempt to create his private "gay homeland" by establishing local friendship networks, and moving closer to other Gay people, both spacially and mentally. We can call the entirety of it a "Greater Urnland", "Gross-Urania", or whatever we like.
« Last Edit: Sun, May 27, 2007, 23:20 by Mogul »
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin

Athrael

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Re: gay homeland
« Reply #38 on: Wed, May 23, 2007, 03:14 »

Quote
"Urnland" (for lack of a better word) will eventually (and I think inevitably) crystallize out of a "Greater Urnland."

How about New New York with New New York City... ;)

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Any ideas on this? Feral was suggesting foam parties with Go-Go boys, the most reasonable suggestion so far... Smiley

yes I have a few ideas. Discussed elsewhere.

Quote
Yep, Buddhism would be an ideal State religion.

State Religion is a bad idea.  The State should be Humanitarian but not religious. Religion should be a personal matter decided by the individual for self.

Further In New New York Nation and New New York City Churches will be taxed too.

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We will certainly have no need in betraying an ally

Ally? Do the GLBT have an ally?

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The problems I have with "secret societies" is partially attributed to their invisibility. How should such an organization recruit its membership?

Its not a secret society. We are talking about a business, a corporation - a company - and like all companies do it will have its corporate secrets. Corporations do very, very well with "recruitment" of workers, CEO's, etc.
According to obituary notices, a mean and useless citizen never dies.

Feral

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Re: gay homeland
« Reply #37 on: Wed, May 16, 2007, 20:34 »

Quote
Quo Vadis, Gay people?

I would like to imagine that they are going home. Alas, I like to imagine a lot of things which simply aren't the case. Still, this is what they should do. It is at once both more simple and more complicated than can be guessed at.

"Home is where the heart is" and I am afraid that the Gay people have, in large measure, little connection to their own hearts. They are far too busy whining and pining for the hearts of others to pay any attention to their own. Never mind the inevitable outrage that these hearts are not open to us. There is no solution in trying to batter our way into acceptance. What value would such a coerced acceptance have? What comfort is there really in bare tolerance?

We should go home. "Where" that might be is nowhere near as vital as "what" that is. The 'where' is just a place (and there are lots of places, and a dozen schemes for acquiring each one). Naturally the sovereign place is the ultimate goal, but I think there is a great deal to be done prior to reaching that goal (or even setting out).

"Urnland" (for lack of a better word) will eventually (and I think inevitably) crystallize out of a "Greater Urnland." This over-arching Gay culture will surely contain corporations and secret societies and religious orders. I hope it eventually contains thousands of them. It would, of course, be helpful if these entities had an interest in the Gay state, or at least the steps along the path to the Gay state. Certainly all Gays will not be interested in such a place, or even interested in supporting it in its accomplished form. Still, much of what is good and necessary for the creation of the Gay state is good and necessary for the Gay people wherever they might live.

Of course, I can also imagine some fabulously wealthy person suddenly coming into possession of what can only be named "Urnland." Perhaps I am too misanthropic, but I do not think that it would be so very successful. Yes, some... even many... would choose to emigrate to it at once. One can imagine that they will rise to the many challenges of such an endeavor and quite possibly succeed. However, I cannot help but notice that nearly all of these challenges exist in only slightly altered form everywhere else in the world and that the Gay people have not been "arising" much. If the Gay people can (and I suspect that they really can) "learn on the job" in some Gay state that springs from the head of Zeus like Athena, then they can also learn on the job where they are now. They do not because they are deceived into not wanting to. They think they want something else entirely. They need to be persuaded otherwise.
Stonewall was a riot.

Mogul

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Re: gay homeland
« Reply #36 on: Wed, May 16, 2007, 08:21 »

The "corporation" would be a false front to the real business behind the store. Sort of like organized Crime business where they present a "legal" acceptable business to the peering eyes of the public, while behind that there is other business, other plans taking place. in the basics. [..] Even in a place where it is illegal to bear arms, there is a wide and diverse black market where everything and anything can be purchased for a price.  Granted one needs to be somewhat inventive in hiding these "toys". 

Scheming and plotting in an openly accessible forum isn't the best way to keep things secret. ;D Whereas I agree that not everything must be known by everybody, I would suggest we stay within the frame of legality when acting on a territory of a host country. Otherwise the enterprise can be rounded up more quickly than one can think. Besides, there is little reason to present a false front in democratic countries which are not hostile to us -- it's not like we were aiming some evil things. However, in Nigeria or Iran there will be no other choice than act secretly, but they are at war with the Gay people anyway, thus it does not matter.

Again this would be a temporary state of affairs, once the man power, the technology, the fire power and all of that is in place then we all join hands and scream "We're Queer, We're Here!".

In essence this idea is good, but not in the way of snickering onto someone else's territory and violently separating a strip of land. Attempting such a thing would most certainly result in unnecessary bloodshed. What can work well is the Gay State posessing enterprises around the world and using their infrastructure and vehicles/vessels for governmental needs. If we are not permitted to evacuate our people from a particular country, we could pick up them as tourists on a cruise ship via a covered tourist agency, that's true. Many things can be done without proclaiming the "official" souvereignty, even totally legal. Setting up a larger navy would be among those things easily done without much legal fuss.

The problems I have with "secret societies" is partially attributed to their invisibility. How should such an organization recruit its membership? I know Burroughs has suggested something very similiar (Gay equivalent of Tong societies), but the prospects of becoming member of a semi-criminal structure will appear not very appealing to the most western Gays. I would suggest that we stick on the idea of a souvereign entity, whose citizens/officers operate legal businesses while staying on territory of friendly states. 

I would wager that a Gay nation would, as part and parcel of its policies, endeavor to teach through demonstration what compassion is.

Yep, Buddhism would be an ideal State religion. But even considering the folks who will insist on staying Christians/Moslems/Wiccans/atheists/whatever, the principles of compassion and respect for living creatures should be implemented right from beginning. I would greately appreciate if this compassion were demonstrated not only towards humans, but also towards animals. It will be probably not feasible to persuade the immigrants to totally abstain from killing and eating animals, but we must ensure that such killings are done in the most painless manner. For example, the barbary of cutting throat of a fully conscious animal must not be permitted. Furthermore, the barbary of a capital punishment and torture shall be forbidden by the constitution: No matter what the evildoer has commited, for our own sake there shall be no outrages commited against him/her.


Sell them on a seemingly unrelated business opportunity and you will have your funds.

Any ideas on this? Feral was suggesting foam parties with Go-Go boys, the most reasonable suggestion so far... :)

We are going to have to be canny and cruel, we are going to have to resort to treachery and deceit.

We will certainly have no need in betraying an ally, it is more probable to happen the other way. Indeed, such things happen very often -- as soon as any liberal government in Europe is replaced by a “Christian Democratic” one, we hear the news of deportation plans on Gay refugees. My prediction is that the most of the powerfull “civillized” governments will lough into our faces without even contemplating our territorial needs. We shall pay them in the same way... The reason of the state shall be our moral compass, indeed.

Seriously consider a GLBT community in any city. They just "happened" no one said, "Lets take X district and make it gay"

Well, such things can be planned - let’s say, a bunch of wealthy businessmen decides to start their businesses in a particular area, in a coordinated manner. They set up their complimentary businesses, lend the appartments solely to Gay people, and buy the area step by step from the previous posessors. The businesses, even if deficitary, would attract a rising influx of Gay men desiring to live in the area. I have little doubt that if Elton John and Lord Brown decided to put some cash together and purchase a middle-sized island somewhere in Pacific and declare it a Gay Paradise, Gay folks would immigrate en masse. Lord Brown is told to have been earning around half a billion pounds in a year, if I remember well. This man could initiate his private Empire, if he wanted -- insted, he chooses to be blackmailed by a prostitute. Quo Vadis, Gay people???
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin

Athrael

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Re: Land Ideas (new and old)
« Reply #35 on: Fri, May 11, 2007, 23:25 »

Of course aiming for such a large project would result in problems, however technically speaking, starting off with something smaller, say hexagonal platforms of about 1000' feet radius, all made to where they can be joined and added too over time. I actually have been giving come serious consideration to the technical side of such a design. I have been researching options in the form of mariculture, I've aimed for realistic, off the shelf hardware for application, leaving the development and research of future potential technologies to the future.

The hexagon is a stable "plate" to float. Not only that it allows for infinite connections of other hexagons with more stability and strength than squares and rectangles.  Further its very design incorporates the equilateral triangle which is strong in itself. The equilateral triangle was hailed by R. Buckminster Fuller as the "only self-stabilizing polygon. 6 equilateral triangles meeting at one point form a hexagon a six sided polygon.

With existing technologies and existing practices in design and engineering there are ways to create a "floating nation". The Dutch are the most innovative presently, but then they are in direct threat of flooding if the seas rise much further. The Dutch should be the ones we turn to in considering "land options" they are keenly aware how limited land is and how land is going to become even more scarce as this century unfolds.

As for time, there is very little of that for us.  We must remember that history is moving, there are a lot of forces at work work which are already taking some nasty turns in the societies we live in.

Pick up a newspaper and read it, you will find that politics are causing fundamental changes, ones that will lead to less "rights" even in the "free" nations of the world.  Economically the world dances on the edge of a razor blade. We already know that there are groups of individuals who really, really want to make bigger problems by detonating of nuclear type weapons in a big city - that will incite governments to "lock down" their peoples - all for the protection of the people. The USA plans to build a fence at its southern boarder and to protect its boarders from immigrants.  Berlin should have taught us that a wall prevents passage both ways.

Peak oil has been reached, from here on out the demand for oil will far outstrip the ability to pump oil. Thus direct and indirect effects will be felt in economies and politics. I do not know how gas prices are in Europe, here in the Americas Gasoline prices are creeping steadily upward, with each passing year new record highs are reached. This year the $4.00 US mark will be reached. 5 years ago we whined and sniveled when $3.00 Us was reached, and to tell the truth many of us lower working class were financially hit hard. Many are already on the verge of bankruptcy and businesses that rely on cheap fuel are in a pinch - especially small businesses.

To top it all off there is Global Warming and Climate change where it is predicted in the next ten years Europe will suffer from more heat waves, Water shortages will crop up around the world, Crop lands are already drying out, soon to become dust bowls. Floods, famine, and pestilences will increase. America herself is not immune, many placed are burning when it used to be the wet season, Storms are worse, more tornadoes and record breaking storm seasons are being reached per year. Arable land is already lost due to water shortages, just a hop and a skip north of me Klamath Calfornia is already dried up and starting to blow away. The farm economy no longer exists and farm families that had been there for generations are now bankrupt and forced to move away.

By 2050 coastal cities will be like Venice, flooding on a regular basis as high tide pulls in higher sea levels onto once dry lands.

Can you imagine the impact that these things will have on the population at large, which presently stands at 6,446,131,400 people today. Will reach  6,605,046,992 by 1 July of this year - By 2050, it is estimated that the global population will reach 9 billion.

We can't even feed and provide minimal health care for about a billion people already. In a world where weather and climate is eating up arable crop land and the population is still growing are we to expect that societies will have the luxury to exercise civil rights and equalities for all? Western nations have yet to be seriously impacted by a shortage of food, but it is right on the horizon.

Western "Free" nations have the luxury of affording us the few rights we have. It is a luxury bought from the abundance of wealth in those societies where food and survival is not a high priority.  I assure you that when push comes to shove those luxuries will be the first to be dropped. rights and Freedoms are being taken away for our "protection" - I assure you when things begin to crack martial law will be the law of the Lands - for the protection of the people, of course.

That will bring civilian strife, and no body will care if a few or many gays are strung up along the fences of dying crops. Their attention and resources will be applied 100% at containing the population at large and answering the On-going, constant emergency that will be the normal state of affairs for most of the world.

It is estimated that the movement of people (Global Warming Refugees) will be an exodus of untenable proportions. It has started already, in the arctic as the first refugees are being evacuated from their homes from the raising waters of the sea:  http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=1043362002 Pacific islands are next and within the next decade those low islands will have to be evacuated: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/2/story.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10407508 Some of those inhabited islands are already flooded at high tide and by rights the people should be moved today.

When space agencies launch a craft to say Mars they speak of "windows" - the "launch window" is affected by several factors, where the target is and where that target will be months or years down the time line, where Earth is and can be affected by the orbits of other bodies man made and other wise, affected by earth bound storms and affected by human error.

We enjoy at the present time a seemingly wide open horizon where our "launch window" on first glance appears to be endless. This is not so, profound changes are taking place that will close that window rather soonish. Things are politically "quiet" economically "quiet" today. This will not be the case tomorrow or the day after tomorrow. Unfortunately there is no way to predict when the next window will open, if ever. We should assume that once this window closes that is the end of any chance at GLBT nation.

We can either sit here and chat about our prospects for the next few decades, or we can listen to the warnings and use those to our advantage.

We are going to have to be canny and cruel, we are going to have to resort to treachery and deceit. We are going to have to use those forces to our advantage or do nothing at all.

The GLBT Nation will not be accepted before its creation. To think that is folly. Seriously consider a GLBT community in any city. They just "happened" no one said, "Lets take X district and make it gay" To even say something like that would be met with the same intense opposition from both sides (Straight and GLBT) as proposing a GLBT nation is met today.

But once a GLBT community is formed it becomes a Gay Mecca where thousands flock drawn by the promise of "open" living.

The formation of a gay state should take place by "accident" not on purpose. At least that is how it should be engineered to appear to happen. It should appear to be created out of "rational" unrelated pressures and needs. It should appear, on the surface, to be as hetero as any other venture to date.

It will not be accepted as "possible" today, tomorrow or even a generation from now no matter how much we try to teach our GLBT brothers and sisters. They are programed otherwise. However once there is a foothold they will gravitate to it and accept it and defend it with all of their heart and soul.

Sell them on a seemingly unrelated business opportunity and you will have your funds.

--->Exploit the greed to meet the need.
According to obituary notices, a mean and useless citizen never dies.

Mogul

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Re: gay homeland
« Reply #34 on: Sat, Jan 14, 2006, 09:45 »

Jaix - due to some peculiarities of my profession my body will be sent to a hazardous waste disposal facility - I am afraid, you will have to run barefoot through the world's history.  =))

Well, the question of "governing the gay people" is closely related to the the definition of the purposes of a government. The purpose of the government is not to oppress the people but to regulate some matters which can not be properly addressed by private initiative. It may include, for example:

1) Representation of the gay people on the international area;
2) Administration of a network of gay organizations and citizens;
3) Funding cultural and sportive activities;
4) Supporting gays and lesbians in urgent need of accomodation, medical or legal support;
5) Securing the gay and lesbian cultural heritage;
6) Physical protection of gays and lesbians;

All these tasks require large sums of money, regulations for collecting this money and mechanisms for controlling the spendings. Not to forget the state apparatus to secure that things run properly. Do we have solutions to offer for these tasks? The current situation is that all the work is already being done by many grassroots organizations and a few international alliances, but no really strong organization exists. There are now 2 ways for forming a state-like entity:

1) Proclaim the government and look for citizens who like this government; or:
2) Form a community from existing movements, groups and organizations and struggle for a democratic representation and establishing some regulative work to bring many different and/or contradicting interest to a peacefull co-existence.

It is quite obvious, that the first way is the most easy to go - it is also not laking legitimacy, as long as the government in question is regulating solely the matters of its registered citizens and does not pretend to act for the entire gay community. However, the impact on the entire gay population probably would be rather low.

The second way is a much more slow and difficult, but it involves already existing structures and is more appropriate to create a global gay community, collecting and re-destributing ressources.

If we could find a possibility to bring the two different approaches together, e.g. if gay activists would recognize the necessity to form a central government out of their middle? Gay nationalists could offer a good example for such a notion, but unfortunately we are not able to do so at the moment.
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin

Jaix

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Re: gay homeland
« Reply #33 on: Sat, Oct 01, 2005, 08:20 »

Vicky, Vicky, Vicky,

You must have a hide as tough as a crocodile!  When you pass from this life, will me some skin.  I need a new pair of boots. >:)

Why do Gays and Lesbians need to be governed?  Does Feral mean as opposed to being  just put on a territory and each doing what he/she will?  Just off the top of my head, I'd say that anarchy wouldn't work for us any more than any other group of human beings.  Suppose someone wanted to wear white after Labor Day or Black after Easter?  Chaos!
Leisure suits, poly-ester and wool, and three types of plaid, oh my!
So I'd say, yes we need to be governed.  But by ourselves, self government, not ruled by groups that couldn't give a used comdom if we became extinct.  Think about it.  We are the last colony.  The largest group in the world to be totally ruled by people outside of our innate group.
I frankly think that when we do come together and raise our voices, some national governments may resort to violence above and beyond what they now do.  Maybe just more insidious.
Can you imagine the alarm if Atlantis rose from the depths and about 500 million GLBTs scurried to occupy it with all their assets, wherewithall and intelligence (not to mention good taste)? A GREAT power if not a super power.
Note to self.....see if I can round up some of our wonderful Amazons for bodyguards. :=SU

Vive LesGays!

Sincerely (tongue in cheek, and maybe not)

Jaix
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