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Author Topic: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail  (Read 12343 times)

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Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
« Reply #49 on: Tue, Feb 14, 2006, 04:42 »

This is certainly true. Whereas a young gay professional in New York, Montreal or Sydney has probably little reason to escape to a gay colony with medium wealth standards and limited job perspectives, the gays and lesbians from Indonesia, Columbia or China would sell their last shirt to buy the airplane ticket to such a colony. The problem what must be solved is the propaganda in poor or oppressive countries: how can we let the homosexuals in these countries know that we exist and give them notice that they will be received with open arms? A pervert way to solve the problem could be to pay a ransom for them to the oppressive governments, but isn't this a dangerous way? I don't know.

While I was writing my novel,I found no solution to the issue you are raising here outside a clearcut gay victory in an armed conflict.In my novel and before that conflict,no one - heterosexual or gay - would help the gay colony.When it was learned that it had defeated soundly an expeditionnary force sent against it,and even captured and displayed its leaders on TV held in leash and forced to sign an act of unconditional surrender,no gay living abroad would further listen to any advice not to join the colony if such was is choice and pleasure.

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Mogul

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Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
« Reply #48 on: Tue, Feb 14, 2006, 02:55 »

This world is a place of scarcity.The wealthy and free ountries from a gay point of view are few,the poor and dangerous ones are the rule.Integrationists would have a very weak point in any argument,should the choice of a gay colony and future country existed.

This is certainly true. Whereas a young gay professional in New York, Montreal or Sydney has probably little reason to escape to a gay colony with medium wealth standards and limited job perspectives, the gays and lesbians from Indonesia, Columbia or China would sell their last shirt to buy the airplane ticket to such a colony. The problem what must be solved is the propaganda in poor or oppressive countries: how can we let the homosexuals in these countries know that we exist and give them notice that they will be received with open arms? A pervert way to solve the problem could be to pay a ransom for them to the oppressive governments, but isn't this a dangerous way? I don't know.
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin

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Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
« Reply #47 on: Fri, Feb 10, 2006, 07:02 »

Most gays, as most humans in generall, are not engaged in political activities, but this of course does not mean that they are desinterested in politics. The interest is there, but lays dormant of some reason or other. The difficulty to organize gays into some kind of non-recreational activity origins mostly from our dispersion, making thus personal contacts connected to additional efforts. It is indeed not very likely that large numbers of gays from Western Europe or North America would leave their jobs and families and emigrate to a new-founded state without developed infrastructure and with low social standarts. But this does not mean that they would be a priory reluctant to organize themselves in communities in their home countries - on an inofficial level this is already happening since decades. In less developed countries, especially with widely spread discrimination against homosexuals, such communities would offer their members not only emotional support, but also additional economical advantages. Everywhere in the world there are uncountable monasteries and religious orders existing, with millions of members, who voluntary live in poverty and dispense with sexual activities. I see no sensible reason why "gay orders" / "gay colonies" which promulgate economical prosperity, allow active sexual live and offer increased safety should be less attractive for our people. The final establishment of a gay state would require a critical mass of citizens, of course - but after its establishment there will be a constant influx of immigrants, this much seems sure.

That question is tackled in my novel.At first,gays hesitated and the then gay colony encountered serious difficulties in importing human ressources.Demographically speaking,it was running below the level of replacement of generations.But the colony was then the object of an
outside armed agression which,after much blood and tears,ended unexpextedly in crowning victory for the gay colonists.This changed the opinion of gays living abroad about the viability of the colony and of its status as a really secure place.A few months later,gays especially the young and the ones from less tolerant countries,were leaving en masse for the colony,transiting through more tolerant countries such as for example the Netherlands,and listening to no advice to stay and try to change their situation in heterosexual countries and societies.Within a decade,the future gay country had its critical masse de manoeuvre,its few millions necessary for the foundation of a gay Republic.And that,despite the fact that the then gay colony had a far lower standard of living to offer.This world is a place of scarcity.The wealthy and free countries from a gay point of view are few,the poor and dangerous ones are the rule.Integrationists would have a very weak point in any argument,should the choice of a gay colony and future country existed.

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Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
« Reply #46 on: Thu, Feb 09, 2006, 23:37 »


Funny, we have similar preferences in literaure. "Robinson Crusoe" is indeed one of my most favored books at all, and Jules Verne was my most loved author in my early youth. I am pretty sure that you will find pleasure in reading Asomovs "Prelude to foundation", "Foundation", "Foundation and Empire" and "Second foundation". It has much of "Realpolitik" in it, indeed I was accused once that my addiction to gay separatism was influenced much by Asimovs works.

 :=SU

Litterature certainly played a role in the formation of my gay separatist sentiments,in combination with my life experiences.At the end of a school year in primary level,a teacher offered me "Robinson Crusoe".I was then eleven years old.Robinson Crusoe`s island would perhaps have appeared as a setting remote to most boys living in industrial and overcrowded societies.But it was very close to my everyday life and reality during the summer vacations of those times.For I spent the first 15 years of my life in a remote part of Canada,in Gaspé more precisely.My family had a summer cottage established on a sandy peninsula not far from the entrance of the bay of Gaspé.In a grandiose landscape,there lied my playground.My father had had a sailboat constructed for me.So my activity consisted in sailing along that peninsula,exploring it inland and hunting small game.Even when my family moved where I live now,up untill age 25 most of my spare time was spent in the large forests we have in my nowadays area,and which ressemble much the Ardenne forest in Europe.This probably made me hungry for space to roam,as I had roamed freely during my entire youth.

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Mogul

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Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
« Reply #45 on: Thu, Feb 09, 2006, 21:11 »

[..] A few non-separatist gays may regard us as crackpots.But in general,the "G" element of the LGBT constellation will not oppose gay separatism.Possibly for that reason that gays never accepted heterosexual domination,no matter the odds against them. [..]

Most gays, as most humans in generall, are not engaged in political activities, but this of course does not mean that they are desinterested in politics. The interest is there, but lays dormant of some reason or other. The difficulty to organize gays into some kind of non-recreational activity origins mostly from our dispersion, making thus personal contacts connected to additional efforts. It is indeed not very likely that large numbers of gays from Western Europe or North America would leave their jobs and families and emigrate to a new-founded state without developed infrastructure and with low social standarts. But this does not mean that they would be a priory reluctant to organize themselves in communities in their home countries - on an inofficial level this is already happening since decades. In less developed countries, especially with widely spread discrimination against homosexuals, such communities would offer their members not only emotional support, but also additional economical advantages. Everywhere in the world there are uncountable monasteries and religious orders existing, with millions of members, who voluntary live in poverty and dispense with sexual activities. I see no sensible reason why "gay orders" / "gay colonies" which promulgate economical prosperity, allow active sexual live and offer increased safety should be less attractive for our people. The final establishment of a gay state would require a critical mass of citizens, of course - but after its establishment there will be a constant influx of immigrants, this much seems sure. The difficulty is to overcome the initial frustration and disbelief. Not the cause itself deems wrong to most gays, but the chances for its realization appear very small for them and therefore not worth of any financial or personal investment. The sole reason why we "must be mad wasting time for something so foolish" is the disbelief that it could function, not the cause as such. Thus this becomes a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy: to vew people engage in the project and therefore it fails. We must overcome this. 

When I was young,my preferences went to Jules Verne`s novels.Or to Daniel Defoe`s "Robinson Crusoe".Or to the Belgian "Tintin" cartoons.I enjoyed - and still enjoy - realistic adventure stories,but disliked fairy tales with magical or divine interventions.Science-fiction novels would interest me if the scenario was plausible."Brave new world" was of that kind,and filled me with joy.

Funny, we have similar preferences in literaure. "Robinson Crusoe" is indeed one of my most favored books at all, and Jules Verne was my most loved author in my early youth. I am pretty sure that you will find pleasure in reading Asomovs "Prelude to foundation", "Foundation", "Foundation and Empire" and "Second foundation". It has much of "Realpolitik" in it, indeed I was accused once that my addiction to gay separatism was influenced much by Asimovs works.

 :=SU
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin

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Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
« Reply #44 on: Thu, Feb 09, 2006, 11:31 »


Do you appreciate Issaak Asimov? He is one of my favorite SF writers and his works of "Robots"-series have inspired me in my early youth very much. It would be a greate thing we could have some comparable Saga about our gay republic! OK, if someone would love to write a mystic gay kingdom novel, I would read it as well.

I heard often of Asimov,but never actually read anything written by him.When I was young,my preferences went to Jules Verne`s novels.Or to Daniel Defoe`s "Robinson Crusoe".Or to the Belgian "Tintin" cartoons.I enjoyed - and still enjoy - realistic adventure stories,but disliked fairy tales with magical or divine interventions.Science-fiction novels would interest me if the scenario was plausible."Brave new world" was of that kind,and filled me with joy.

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Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
« Reply #43 on: Thu, Feb 09, 2006, 11:14 »

That's exactly what we are here for. Even if only few authors have so far contributed to the debates, the opinions about the way and purposes of the gay state vary in a large scope.

Based on experience,I wouldn`t expect to encounter many gays who are separatists.I wouldn`t expect either that agreement will automatically
flow between gays and from the fact that they are separatists.A few non-separatist gays may regard us as crackpots.But in general,the "G" element of the LGBT constellation will not oppose gay separatism.Possibly for that reason that gays never accepted heterosexual domination,no matter the odds against them.The hethro regime cannot really count on their loyalty,or on their defending interests which they have clearly identified as not being theirs.

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Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
« Reply #42 on: Wed, Feb 08, 2006, 23:02 »

So,in this forum,we could accumulate a corpus of debates and political doctrine having to o with gay independence.And from then on,evolve some blueprint for secession from the hethro Empire.

That's exactly what we are here for. Even if only few authors have so far contributed to the debates, the opinions about the way and purposes of the gay state vary in a large scope. Where to put such a state, who is eligible for residential/citizen status, what to do with heterosexual kids and how should the state be governed? The differences in suggested solution, even funded opposition to our cause as such are important: it contributes to the pools of ideas and helps to uncover weak points and neglected problems. I am sure that as much closer we would come to actual realization of our goal, as more wide spectrum of problems we will have to deal with: from economical developement to medical supply and environment protection.

For the first it is important to bring all the interested individuals together and channel our efforts in promotion of the idea. As non of us are professional marketer and our financial ressources are rather sparse, the internet seems to offer the best cost/utility ratio for propaganda. We could also place ads in gay magazines, distribute flyers, postcards and posters, in the hope that some more gay nationalists are there but have never known that others exist as well. 

Generally, everybody is welcome who is interested in further developement of gays/queer as a distinct people on its own. If/when the gay state will be established, it will closely cooperate with the diaspora and need all the help it can get. The cultural and political advancement of the entire gay population will be our task. As for any cultural work no separated territory is required, we can start gathering lots of material right now, and hopefully become the place for research on gay culture. However, untill this days will come, we will have to do a lot of work and try to involve others already active on the field.

If you have a possibility to digitalize some of your stuff, you maybe should do it. As you said, the Internet offers incredible chances, if one has the big luck to make the breakthrough into public visibility. 

Close friends of mine have read the novel.Generally,they haven`t liked the first part ("The Ghetto"),but they have enjoyed the two others ("The Colony" and then "The Republic").I put myself in the shoes of gay historians of the future,living in political independence,and regarding it as only their due.

This sounds pretty interesting - I think I would enjoy it very much. Do you appreciate Issaak Asimov? He is one of my favorite SF writers and his works of "Robots"-series have inspired me in my early youth very much. It would be a greate thing we could have some comparable Saga about our gay republic! OK, if someone would love to write a mystic gay kingdom novel, I would read it as well.
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin

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Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
« Reply #41 on: Wed, Feb 08, 2006, 00:28 »

I am most sure that there would be much interest among those who speak French - there are many also in France and Africa. :) Literature is very important, as it not only provides us with joy and pleasure, but also with new ideas. A separatist novell is of course an interesting thing!

Should a participant to this forum and from the province of Quebec appear,I will give him the necessary information so that he will have access to
the copy of my novel now in the hands of the Archives Gaies du Québec (AGQ).I have been a major contributor to the AGQ from 1992 to 1999,
and I know personally some of its leaders or founders.Close friends of mine have read the novel.Generally,they haven`t liked the first part ("The Ghetto"),but they have enjoyed the two others ("The Colony" and then "The Republic").I put myself in the shoes of gay historians of the future,living in political independence,and regarding it as only their due.Thus,looking down not without some measure of contempt on both
heterosexuals and gays of these former times,when we gays lived under the hethro jackboot.

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Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
« Reply #40 on: Wed, Feb 08, 2006, 00:14 »

Well, why not make a compillation of your ideas into one piece of work and present it in a publication? I know, it is not an easy task, but a worthy one. Sure, such thing would require time - but Roma also wasn't built over night.

Since january 1st,1995,I keep up to date a political diary,to register my ideological evolution over the years.Incorporated in it is that code I earlier mentionned,along with maps of the territory of its implementation and changes in the configuration of that territory.Steps have been taken so that the Archives Gaies du Québec will get it should anything happen to me.But I think that this forum of yours is something better and more efficient,if you can only keep it in operation for a certain number of years.In my political diary,I only debate with myself.Here,I have the privilege of debating with other gay separatists,something I have never dreamt it would happen before you contacted me last november.So,in this forum,we could accumulate a corpus of debates and political doctrine having to do with gay independence.And from then on,evolve some blueprint for secession from the hethro Empire.

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Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
« Reply #39 on: Tue, Feb 07, 2006, 21:43 »

[..] My novel being written in French is of marginal interest so long as it as not been translated.At best,it could be of local use,to gays living in Montreal or in the province of Quebec.It couldn`t be of any use to the GLR or to any other international gay circle.Where I can be of service to other gay separatists is not with my novel,but rather with my reflexions on the subject of gay separatism,and with the connected knowledges I have accumulated on the way and during the last 35 years.I have been a gay separatist almost from the moment heterosexuals first crossed me.

I am most sure that there would be much interest among those who speak French - there are many also in France and Africa. :) Literature is very important, as it not only provides us with joy and pleasure, but also with new ideas. A separatist novell is of course an interesting thing!

Well, why not make a compillation of your ideas into one piece of work and present it in a publication? I know, it is not an easy task, but a worthy one. Sure, such thing would require time - but Roma also wasn't built over night. Also some list of gay literature which you can recommend (in what language you want) would certainly be of interest. Our online library/archive is in an embrional stage yet, and suggestions are highly welcomed. Pictures, textes, informations about gay memorials etc - everything is welcome.
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin

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Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
« Reply #38 on: Tue, Feb 07, 2006, 13:43 »

You mean this group:

Archives gaies du Québec
4067, boulevard St-Laurent, bureau 202
Montréal, Québec H2W 1Y7 Canada
(514) 287-9987
info@agq.qc.ca

Sorry for persistence, but what kind of arrangement have you made with these gentlemen? Are they going to publish the book or is it just shelved in the archive? 

What the Archives Gaies du Québec (AGQ) have is to my knowledge available to the public,for consultation and reading in the place where the AGQ has its offices.My novel being written in French is of marginal interest so long as it as not been translated.At best,it could be of local use,to gays living in Montreal or in the province of Quebec.It couldn`t be of any use to the GLR or to any other international gay circle.Where I can be of service to other gay separatists is not with my novel,but rather with my reflexions on the subject of gay separatism,and with the connected knowledges I have accumulated on the way and during the last 35 years.I have been a gay separatist almost from the moment heterosexuals first crossed me.

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Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
« Reply #37 on: Mon, Feb 06, 2006, 01:29 »

You mean this group:

Archives gaies du Québec
4067, boulevard St-Laurent, bureau 202
Montréal, Québec H2W 1Y7 Canada
(514) 287-9987
info@agq.qc.ca

Sorry for persistence, but what kind of arrangement have you made with these gentlemen? Are they going to publish the book or is it just shelved in the archive? This would be a pity.

My concept of participation in the cause of gay self-determination is one of humble service,among anonymous millions ready to do the same without any personal reward.This is no time to talk about my personal litterary carreer.My novel and my fate are of no importance.

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Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
« Reply #36 on: Mon, Feb 06, 2006, 01:03 »

Many non-native English speakers can understand English to a certain degree, but often miss the exact sense or are not very skilled in writing in this language.

I have travelled a certain number of times abroad.I found no confirmation that English was widely spoken or known beyond the showcase constituted by the hotel sector or the one of an educated class.Most often,I had to communicate in the local language.In Poland and with the
average pole encountered on the street,I communicated in Polish.In latin america,I spoke most of the time Spanish.

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Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
« Reply #35 on: Sun, Feb 05, 2006, 21:06 »

In january 1991,I met an editor.He read the novel,and found it entertaining from the beginning to the last word.He was ready to publish it.I was not very satisfied though with the contract he was proposing me.So I contacted instead,and in the spring of 1992,the Archives Gaies du Québec,a Montreal based group specializing in gay history and compilation of gay litterature.I wasn`t too sure of their seriousness untill I first met them.These are scolars,either real archivists in professionnal life,or specialized in certain fields of knowledge like among others anthropology.The fate of my novel is now in their hands,for they have a copy of it.The novel is besides under a canadian copyright.[..]

You mean this group:

Archives gaies du Québec
4067, boulevard St-Laurent, bureau 202
Montréal, Québec H2W 1Y7 Canada
(514) 287-9987
info@agq.qc.ca

Sorry for persistence, but what kind of arrangement have you made with these gentlemen? Are they going to publish the book or is it just shelved in the archive? This would be a pity.
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin
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