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Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail

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K6:

--- Quote from: Mogul on Tue, Feb 14, 2006, 02:55 ---This is certainly true. Whereas a young gay professional in New York, Montreal or Sydney has probably little reason to escape to a gay colony with medium wealth standards and limited job perspectives, the gays and lesbians from Indonesia, Columbia or China would sell their last shirt to buy the airplane ticket to such a colony. The problem what must be solved is the propaganda in poor or oppressive countries: how can we let the homosexuals in these countries know that we exist and give them notice that they will be received with open arms? A pervert way to solve the problem could be to pay a ransom for them to the oppressive governments, but isn't this a dangerous way? I don't know.

--- End quote ---

While I was writing my novel,I found no solution to the issue you are raising here outside a clearcut gay victory in an armed conflict.In my novel and before that conflict,no one - heterosexual or gay - would help the gay colony.When it was learned that it had defeated soundly an expeditionnary force sent against it,and even captured and displayed its leaders on TV held in leash and forced to sign an act of unconditional surrender,no gay living abroad would further listen to any advice not to join the colony if such was is choice and pleasure.

K6

Mogul:

--- Quote from: K6 on Fri, Feb 10, 2006, 07:02 ---This world is a place of scarcity.The wealthy and free ountries from a gay point of view are few,the poor and dangerous ones are the rule.Integrationists would have a very weak point in any argument,should the choice of a gay colony and future country existed.

--- End quote ---

This is certainly true. Whereas a young gay professional in New York, Montreal or Sydney has probably little reason to escape to a gay colony with medium wealth standards and limited job perspectives, the gays and lesbians from Indonesia, Columbia or China would sell their last shirt to buy the airplane ticket to such a colony. The problem what must be solved is the propaganda in poor or oppressive countries: how can we let the homosexuals in these countries know that we exist and give them notice that they will be received with open arms? A pervert way to solve the problem could be to pay a ransom for them to the oppressive governments, but isn't this a dangerous way? I don't know.

K6:

--- Quote from: Mogul on Thu, Feb 09, 2006, 21:11 ---Most gays, as most humans in generall, are not engaged in political activities, but this of course does not mean that they are desinterested in politics. The interest is there, but lays dormant of some reason or other. The difficulty to organize gays into some kind of non-recreational activity origins mostly from our dispersion, making thus personal contacts connected to additional efforts. It is indeed not very likely that large numbers of gays from Western Europe or North America would leave their jobs and families and emigrate to a new-founded state without developed infrastructure and with low social standarts. But this does not mean that they would be a priory reluctant to organize themselves in communities in their home countries - on an inofficial level this is already happening since decades. In less developed countries, especially with widely spread discrimination against homosexuals, such communities would offer their members not only emotional support, but also additional economical advantages. Everywhere in the world there are uncountable monasteries and religious orders existing, with millions of members, who voluntary live in poverty and dispense with sexual activities. I see no sensible reason why "gay orders" / "gay colonies" which promulgate economical prosperity, allow active sexual live and offer increased safety should be less attractive for our people. The final establishment of a gay state would require a critical mass of citizens, of course - but after its establishment there will be a constant influx of immigrants, this much seems sure.

--- End quote ---

That question is tackled in my novel.At first,gays hesitated and the then gay colony encountered serious difficulties in importing human ressources.Demographically speaking,it was running below the level of replacement of generations.But the colony was then the object of an
outside armed agression which,after much blood and tears,ended unexpextedly in crowning victory for the gay colonists.This changed the opinion of gays living abroad about the viability of the colony and of its status as a really secure place.A few months later,gays especially the young and the ones from less tolerant countries,were leaving en masse for the colony,transiting through more tolerant countries such as for example the Netherlands,and listening to no advice to stay and try to change their situation in heterosexual countries and societies.Within a decade,the future gay country had its critical masse de manoeuvre,its few millions necessary for the foundation of a gay Republic.And that,despite the fact that the then gay colony had a far lower standard of living to offer.This world is a place of scarcity.The wealthy and free countries from a gay point of view are few,the poor and dangerous ones are the rule.Integrationists would have a very weak point in any argument,should the choice of a gay colony and future country existed.

K6

K6:

--- Quote from: Mogul on Thu, Feb 09, 2006, 21:11 ---
Funny, we have similar preferences in literaure. "Robinson Crusoe" is indeed one of my most favored books at all, and Jules Verne was my most loved author in my early youth. I am pretty sure that you will find pleasure in reading Asomovs "Prelude to foundation", "Foundation", "Foundation and Empire" and "Second foundation". It has much of "Realpolitik" in it, indeed I was accused once that my addiction to gay separatism was influenced much by Asimovs works.

 :=SU

--- End quote ---

Litterature certainly played a role in the formation of my gay separatist sentiments,in combination with my life experiences.At the end of a school year in primary level,a teacher offered me "Robinson Crusoe".I was then eleven years old.Robinson Crusoe`s island would perhaps have appeared as a setting remote to most boys living in industrial and overcrowded societies.But it was very close to my everyday life and reality during the summer vacations of those times.For I spent the first 15 years of my life in a remote part of Canada,in Gaspé more precisely.My family had a summer cottage established on a sandy peninsula not far from the entrance of the bay of Gaspé.In a grandiose landscape,there lied my playground.My father had had a sailboat constructed for me.So my activity consisted in sailing along that peninsula,exploring it inland and hunting small game.Even when my family moved where I live now,up untill age 25 most of my spare time was spent in the large forests we have in my nowadays area,and which ressemble much the Ardenne forest in Europe.This probably made me hungry for space to roam,as I had roamed freely during my entire youth.

K6

Mogul:

--- Quote from: K6 on Thu, Feb 09, 2006, 11:14 ---[..] A few non-separatist gays may regard us as crackpots.But in general,the "G" element of the LGBT constellation will not oppose gay separatism.Possibly for that reason that gays never accepted heterosexual domination,no matter the odds against them. [..]

--- End quote ---

Most gays, as most humans in generall, are not engaged in political activities, but this of course does not mean that they are desinterested in politics. The interest is there, but lays dormant of some reason or other. The difficulty to organize gays into some kind of non-recreational activity origins mostly from our dispersion, making thus personal contacts connected to additional efforts. It is indeed not very likely that large numbers of gays from Western Europe or North America would leave their jobs and families and emigrate to a new-founded state without developed infrastructure and with low social standarts. But this does not mean that they would be a priory reluctant to organize themselves in communities in their home countries - on an inofficial level this is already happening since decades. In less developed countries, especially with widely spread discrimination against homosexuals, such communities would offer their members not only emotional support, but also additional economical advantages. Everywhere in the world there are uncountable monasteries and religious orders existing, with millions of members, who voluntary live in poverty and dispense with sexual activities. I see no sensible reason why "gay orders" / "gay colonies" which promulgate economical prosperity, allow active sexual live and offer increased safety should be less attractive for our people. The final establishment of a gay state would require a critical mass of citizens, of course - but after its establishment there will be a constant influx of immigrants, this much seems sure. The difficulty is to overcome the initial frustration and disbelief. Not the cause itself deems wrong to most gays, but the chances for its realization appear very small for them and therefore not worth of any financial or personal investment. The sole reason why we "must be mad wasting time for something so foolish" is the disbelief that it could function, not the cause as such. Thus this becomes a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy: to vew people engage in the project and therefore it fails. We must overcome this. 


--- Quote from: K6 on Thu, Feb 09, 2006, 11:31 ---When I was young,my preferences went to Jules Verne`s novels.Or to Daniel Defoe`s "Robinson Crusoe".Or to the Belgian "Tintin" cartoons.I enjoyed - and still enjoy - realistic adventure stories,but disliked fairy tales with magical or divine interventions.Science-fiction novels would interest me if the scenario was plausible."Brave new world" was of that kind,and filled me with joy.
--- End quote ---

Funny, we have similar preferences in literaure. "Robinson Crusoe" is indeed one of my most favored books at all, and Jules Verne was my most loved author in my early youth. I am pretty sure that you will find pleasure in reading Asomovs "Prelude to foundation", "Foundation", "Foundation and Empire" and "Second foundation". It has much of "Realpolitik" in it, indeed I was accused once that my addiction to gay separatism was influenced much by Asimovs works.

 :=SU

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