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Author Topic: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail  (Read 12233 times)

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Mogul

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Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
« Reply #34 on: Sun, Feb 05, 2006, 20:03 »

You have already linguistic boards on this forum.You`ve used them in a manner which would not have occured to me at first,by posting material about gay rights from the European Union.Material which is already transated into some languages.I suggess that you pursue onto that path.If you get reactions in French,Spanish or Portuguese,I`ll try to find time to translate them into English.

Many non-native English speakers can understand English to a certain degree, but often miss the exact sense or are not very skilled in writing in this language. Therefore I think it is important to encourage people to improve their English skills, while at the same time give them possibility to exchange opinions in their native language as well. On this way somebody not so skilled in English can contribute his opinion to the discussion as well. It would be probably a difficult task to translate every post into 5 or 6 languages, but for important contributions an additional effort should be justified, I think.
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin

K6

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Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
« Reply #33 on: Sun, Feb 05, 2006, 16:19 »

You have entirely right, that we should take any possible effort to reach as many people as possible, and using their native languages is certainly an important part of strategie. On the other side, we should not let us be self-bondaged. It is important to take additional efforts to translate significant publications into as many languages as possible, but it is probably not so good an idea to restrict oneself from posting in English. After all, it is certainly more ressource-saving to make a compromise on using one language as a lingua franca

You have already linguistic boards on this forum.You`ve used them in a manner which would not have occured to me at first,by posting material about gay rights from the European Union.Material which is already transated into some languages.I suggess that you pursue onto that path.If you get reactions in French,Spanish or Portuguese,I`ll try to find time to translate them into English.

K6

Mogul

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Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
« Reply #32 on: Sun, Feb 05, 2006, 15:51 »

[..] Some outstanding and future political leader of our people could be hanging out there,who will not necessarily know English.In this forum,I do not mind at all using all the time or most of the time English.But in the service of my country,the GPR and in alt.politics.micronations,I must do my best to reach out in diverse geographical,cultural and linguistic directions,so as to exploit to the full this new technology of the internet and not miss some opportunity. [..]

Thanks for clarification - I am sorry a allowed myself to make a little fun of your multilingual attitudes.  :WN

You have entirely right, that we should take any possible effort to reach as many people as possible, and using their native languages is certainly an important part of strategie. On the other side, we should not let us be self-bondaged. It is important to take additional efforts to translate significant publications into as many languages as possible, but it is probably not so good an idea to restrict oneself from posting in English. After all, it is certainly more ressource-saving to make a compromise on using one language as a lingua franca - I favour IDO, as it seems to be the most easy to learn and use:


Unfortunately, IDO language is not widely used and it would require lots of investment to make it more common - a life project on its own.
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin

K6

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Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
« Reply #31 on: Sun, Feb 05, 2006, 15:05 »

I neither speak Portuguiese mor do I trust much to the translation machines.  :N Being a less complicated man, I am inclined to suggest using English, but I am afraid this will not meet your criterions for political correctness.

Rest assured that I do not dwell much in political corretness of fashions.It`s only that our human ressources and thus political means are dispersed.They are to be found in every country of the world.I am a separatist,but a practical one conscious that the environment in which I serve politically will by nature and necessity be international.Some outstanding and future political leader of our people could be hanging out there,who will not necessarily know English.In this forum,I do not mind at all using all the time or most of the time English.But in the service of my country,the GPR and in alt.politics.micronations,I must do my best to reach out in diverse geographical,cultural and linguistic directions,so as to exploit to the full this new technology of the internet and not miss some opportunity.Besides,and even before we set up any separatist political structure,we will have to demonstrate a capacity for operating and dealing on an international plane.

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Mogul

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Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
« Reply #30 on: Sun, Feb 05, 2006, 14:37 »

I neither speak Portuguiese mor do I trust much to the translation machines.  :N Being a less complicated man, I am inclined to suggest using English, but I am afraid this will not meet your criterions for political correctness. =)) I posted a reply in alt.politics.micronations, which I would like to re-post here as well.

Quote
[..] Historians of the future will probably regard such earliest separatists gay circles like the GLR or the GPR as starting points of various gay political parties of a corresponding gay independent State,rather than embryos of that State itself. [..]

A State consists not only of the state apparatus, but also of various public institutions. Political parties and other opinion-shaping entities (churches etc.) are essential parts of many states. Before a Gay State (worth of this name) can be established, the task of creation of a Gay national identity must be accomplished. While being a people, we are far from being a nation.

The nation includes all the various political and societal diversity, kept together by the emotional bonds of being a nation. A nation can not be created by installing a government and issuing passports. A nation lives from participation of her members in forming the national identity, from her writers and publishers, from politicians and the "common folk". Various public and private initiatives keep a nation together - newspapers, television, historic books, museums and tea clubs. Certain shared ceremonies and celebrities are an essential part of national identity as well: ours are the Gay Pride Parades, Gay Games / Outgames - we could need a couple of them more.
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin

K6

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Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
« Reply #29 on: Sat, Feb 04, 2006, 12:25 »

But of course  I can wait untill you have posted away the other 4 obligatory messages in other languages - just let me know when I should look into alt.micrination.politics for a new contribution in English. 

Two answers were posted recently for you in alt.politics.micronations,one in German and one in English.The German and Portuguese language
sectors of activity of the GPR are to be regarded as preparatory.I can have short casual conversations or brief exchanges in writing and in German,
but I do not really speak the language.I neither speak nor understand Portuguese in spoken form,but I read it without difficulty and can answer
in writing.

K6 

K6

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Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
« Reply #28 on: Wed, Feb 01, 2006, 23:32 »

Sounds interesting - why haven't you publish it so far? Beyound all "positive contributions to the gay nationalism movement" this work is probably of certain entertaining value. :) I don't think the world has many nice pieces of literature of this kind - count me as having sent a pre-order!

In january 1991,I met an editor.He read the novel,and found it entertaining from the beginning to the last word.He was ready to publish it.I was not very satisfied though with the contract he was proposing me.So I contacted instead,and in the spring of 1992,the Archives Gaies du Québec,a Montreal based group specializing in gay history and compilation of gay litterature.I wasn`t too sure of their seriousness untill I first met them.These are scolars,either real archivists in professionnal life,or specialized in certain fields of knowledge like among others anthropology.The fate of my novel is now in their hands,for they have a copy of it.The novel is besides under a canadian copyright.I would have no difficulty in translating it into English.The problem is that being on a 9 to 5 work shift five days a week,I have no time to do so.I had to write that novel mostly at night,in the early hours of the morning (3 to 6 am).And I found it extremely frustrating to interrupt my writing to go to work.If I ever work again in novel writting,I must have no professional or money concern intefering in any way with it.I have a plan to write a following.But that will have to await untill my retirement.

K6

Mogul

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Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
« Reply #27 on: Wed, Feb 01, 2006, 21:55 »

It would have to be translated first,for I wrote it in French.It covers 522 pages. [..] A small gay community finds itself alone in the now desolate St.Lawrence valley which was formerly part of Canada.Throughout ensuing events constituting its saga,it shall face all kinds of trials (including an armed conflict).When the history ends 44 years later,the little community of the beginning has become a nation-State. [..]

Sounds interesting - why haven't you publish it so far? Beyound all "positive contributions to the gay nationalism movement" this work is probably of certain entertaining value. :) I don't think the world has many nice pieces of literature of this kind - count me as having sent a pre-order!

I do not mind at all about us having harems as a consequence of political independence,a most agreable consequence.But we should avoid pornocracy.Favourites would be there to provide us with entertainment,not with political advice.They should not either receive as a reward
for their services political information on the pillow.Otherwise,it will not be long before we produce our own version of Calligula.

Very true! Jokes aside, I have founded doubts that any politicians in highly responsible positions would have much time and energy left for satisfying an entire harem - but pretty boys as decoration and tourist attractions would be certainly fine! This would solve our youth unemployment problems either! =))
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin

K6

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Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
« Reply #26 on: Wed, Feb 01, 2006, 12:53 »

K6, you got it completely wrong: in the gay state there will be a perfect order:

1) The country is led by Mogul with iron hand;
2) The most beatifull boys serve Mogul and Vizier as private secretaries and personal guardes;
3) Every freshly immigrated youth below the age of 25 must prove that he is truly gay by accomplishing an extensive naturalization procedure, the quotes being justly distributed amongst the Gay Knights;
4) In case the youth is especially beatifull and therefore further investigation seems necessary to prove his gayness, other Gay Knights must be consulted;
5) see point 2.

As everyone can easily understand, this state system is the only one which would guarantee the country stability and social peace, therefore no serious doubt concerning this system can arise.


I do not mind at all about us having harems as a consequence of political independence,a most agreable consequence.But we should avoid pornocracy.Favourites would be there to provide us with entertainment,not with political advice.They should not either receive as a reward
for their services political information on the pillow.Otherwise,it will not be long before we produce our own version of Calligula.

K6

K6

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Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
« Reply #25 on: Wed, Feb 01, 2006, 00:18 »


P.S. I'm dying to read the novell! :)

It would have to be translated first,for I wrote it in French.It covers 522 pages.It has the aspect of a sometimes ponderous,sometimes surreal manual of history,occillating between the comic and the melodramatic,written by a collective of historians living in a gay independent country of
the future.They tell how that country came into existence,incorporating real events of the life of the Montreal gay community of the 1970s.It starts of course with a major catastrophy,of which I will not tell you here wether it had to do with geopolitics,economics or environment.A small gay community finds itself alone in the now desolate St.Lawrence valley which was formerly part of Canada.Throughout ensuing events constituting its saga,it shall face all kinds of trials (including an armed conflict).When the history ends 44 years later,the little community of the beginning has become a nation-State.While I was writting that novel,I often sought inspiration in listening classical music,notably to Rachmaninoff`s "Isle of the Dead".

K6

Mogul

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Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
« Reply #24 on: Tue, Jan 31, 2006, 21:28 »

Polyandry could originate in an issue having to do with public order.I have no precise idea on how we gays would congregate in a situation of political independence and freedom.But disputes could arise between various informal clans or tribes over the possession of this of that most
handsome individual.

K6, you got it completely wrong: in the gay state there will be a perfect order:

1) The country is led by Mogul with iron hand;
2) The most beatifull boys serve Mogul and Vizier as private secretaries and personal guardes;
3) Every freshly immigrated youth below the age of 25 must prove that he is truly gay by accomplishing an extensive naturalization procedure, the quotes being justly distributed amongst the Gay Knights;
4) In case the youth is especially beatifull and therefore further investigation seems necessary to prove his gayness, other Gay Knights must be consulted;
5) see point 2.

As everyone can easily understand, this state system is the only one which would guarantee the country stability and social peace, therefore no serious doubt concerning this system can arise.
 >:)

P.S. I'm dying to read the novell! :)
« Last Edit: Tue, Jan 31, 2006, 21:30 by Mogul »
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin

Mogul

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Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
« Reply #23 on: Tue, Jan 31, 2006, 17:10 »

Well, no one would be forced into separation? There is no reason for panick then - everybody shall be able to live on his façon. It's certainly true that bisexuals are not the primary target group for the gay state, but I see no reason to alienate all of them because of some problem cases with guilt complexes. Many of our greek "idols" were in truth bisexuals, and it would be ridiculous to worship the old greeks while condemn our contemporary bisexuals.  Generally I believe that in case the gay state should be founded, the "good ones" will separate themeselves from the "bad ones" in the natural way: they will either support this state or not. The same is to be expected for gays in the wide sense: they will either declare solidarity or refuse the project - no real need for us to classify them into "gays" and "non-gays" by means of legislation. Those who hold reproduction high or enjoy pleasures of both homo- and heterosexual sex will anyway feel no urge to leave the "normal" society.

Certainly, some criterions will be established, but I would suggest that these criterions are rather inclusive and not exclusive - means there must be possibility for a bi- or a transsexual to become full citizen without humiliating restrictions or invasion of his privacy. I must repeat my views about the civil rights: the state shall be only allowed to restrict them if this is stringently necessary, and only in an adequate manner. Since it is highly unlikeable that the gay state would be invaded by "straights with peripheral homosexual tendencies", there is no need to insult the few bisexual citizens with questions about their loyalty, hey?
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin

K6

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Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
« Reply #22 on: Tue, Jan 31, 2006, 07:44 »

As to our own adversaries, they would be perfectly able to post their views in this forum following few simple rules of common decency, but out of some ridiculous reasons they insist on using false e-mail adresses and other people's identities.

So far,the GLR doesn`t seem to have encountered a specific opposition which more than a quarter of century of involvement as a gay separatist have made somewhat more familiar to me.Most of the time,gay separatism will not be greeted with hostility.In micropolitical forums and simulation,a gay micronation will most probably be greeted just like any other.A gay micropolitical actor will be assessed on the basis of his statecraft rather than his gayness.But the LGBT abreviation and constellation is confusing,in the sense that it doesn`t disclose different and potentially antagonistic interests.A certain number of characters hailing out the "B" element of the abreviation could litterally panick at hearing about gay separatism.A bit like those drunken straight guys one encounters in a bar,invites home,sleep with,and who then at dawn,and realizing what they`ve done in bed,start to beat you up.The pet hate of the "B" element of the LGBT abreviation for gay separatists is not a very pretty sight.We must not loose sight of that fact we have learned from experience that most homophobes have peripheral homosexual tendencies.They are not in secure possession of their hethro privilege,which makes them already unconfortable with gays who haven`t yet
displayed separatist or even at that political ambitions.Imagine then what will happen when they will cross the path of gays who seek political independence,a scenario in which they stand to loose litteraly everything.

K6

Mogul

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Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
« Reply #21 on: Tue, Jan 31, 2006, 04:15 »

According to that plan,I must post four messages in languages other than English before I post one in English.The micronation I am involved in has opted for a decentralized structure of communication,split in as many languages as possible.First,to reach as many gays as possible,90% of the world population not knowing English.Second,to complicate the task of eventual political adversaries.Unlike you within this forum,I do not possess the technical means or competence to lock out trouble makers.It is besides not necessary if I can lock them out of my communication traffic and exchanges with others,by exploiting their weaknesses in international communication and foreign languages.[..]

Yiek!  >:) This strategy is certainly very snaky against any potential adversaries, but it is also a little bit confusing for the little political allies you have! I mean, the world of gay nationalists is a very small one and it doesn't make the communication especially productive, when your conversation partners understand only 20% of what you share with the world. :N Why not grasp the code not as message but simply as archiving issue, therefore no problems with the strategy of your micronation should arise? But of course  I can wait untill you have posted away the other 4 obligatory messages in other languages - just let me know when I should look into alt.micrination.politics for a new contribution in English. 

As to our own adversaries, they would be perfectly able to post their views in this forum following few simple rules of common decency, but out of some ridiculous reasons they insist on using false e-mail adresses and other people's identities.
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin

K6

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Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
« Reply #20 on: Mon, Jan 30, 2006, 13:43 »

OK, take all the time you need.  :L You could start a new thread and post the code away step by step. It is surelly very interesting - the part with gay duties will be certainly very controversal. 
:=SU



Upon reflection,that would amount at representing officially the gay micronation in which I am involved.Which I have instructions not to do outside alt.politics.micronations for the time being.In alt.politics.micronations,I could post quotes of the said code,but within a general plan of activity adopted back in january 2005.According to that plan,I must post four messages in languages other than English before I post one in English.The micronation I am involved in has opted for a decentralized structure of communication,split in as many languages as possible.First,to reach as many gays as possible,90% of the world population not knowing English.Second,to complicate the task of eventual political adversaries.Unlike you within this forum,I do not possess the technical means or competence to lock out trouble makers.It is besides not
necessary if I can lock them out of my communication traffic and exchanges with others,by exploiting their weaknesses in international communication and foreign languages.This being said,it is possible to infer what the Code of the GPR contents,the views I express here
being those implemented in the GPR itself,here in north America.You thus get a detailed comment rather than mere quotes of the above
mentionned code.

K6
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