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Author Topic: Land Ideas (new and old)  (Read 22598 times)

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Leoroc

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Re: Land Ideas (new and old)
« Reply #57 on: Thu, Dec 04, 2008, 01:21 »

Also, the islands mentioned earlier in the thread are waaaay too small. We'd need something like 5 million acres and the biggest islands there are ~36000. I'd recommend doing something mainland, where you can buy a small patch and expand outward. It'd be better in the long run, and cheaper as well.

Leoroc

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Re: Land Ideas (new and old)
« Reply #56 on: Thu, Dec 04, 2008, 01:17 »

I think the best solution is to find something developmentally viable. In other words, we need something to go there for, like an oil venture in Colombia or Peru or something. Develop it as that, and relocate GLBTs as employees to the region, build up a community/economy around mining or agriculture and then work on independence.

For example, pick a spot in South America, Africa or Southeast Asia, and find another reason to go there. Get investments, build up a banana farm or something and relocate GLBTs as the employees. The rest will follow on its own.

Mogul

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Re: Land Ideas (new and old)
« Reply #55 on: Sun, Oct 07, 2007, 08:23 »

From the Wikipedia artcle about French Guyana:
Quote
A chronic issue affecting French Guiana is the influx of illegal immigrants and clandestine gold prospectors from Brazil and Suriname. The border between the department and Suriname is formed by the Maroni River, which flows through rain forest and is difficult for the Gendarmerie and the French Foreign Legion to patrol.

 ;D
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin

bryanc1290

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Re: Land Ideas (new and old)
« Reply #54 on: Sat, Oct 06, 2007, 02:08 »

I know a place that we can settle in. It is a French Colony in South America. It is called French Guyana. It has resources that can help us start an economy. If we ever settle there, I do think we would get support from the U.S., the U.N. and the European Union.

Mogul

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Re: Land Ideas (new and old)
« Reply #53 on: Sat, May 12, 2007, 05:31 »

Sorry, guys -- you were digressing... 8[

I moved 3 posts from this thread to different areas of the forum. The posts by themselves are entirely OK, but were not on topic -- this thread it is reserved for new land suggestions . Land as rock and soil.  ;D

I have splitted and merged your contributions to more fitting htreads, they can be found now here:

Floating islands & critics: http://forum.gayrepublic.org/index.php/topic,391.0.html
Climate change & consequences for the Gay Homeland Movement: http://forum.gayrepublic.org/index.php/topic,17.0.html
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin

Athrael

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Re: Land Ideas (new and old)
« Reply #52 on: Wed, May 02, 2007, 03:30 »

Holland answered the problem of land with dikes, levees and the application of a new technology - new way back - wind power. Most, not all islands have barrier reefs which can be extended upward making a levee system, then it is a process of pumping out water. Of course in the age of melting ice and ocean rise your island may not be an island for long

Desalting ocean water is difficult, even with modern methods - There are other ways to secure fresh water and power. http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.06/craven.html has a tried and true method.

Distance from the rest of the world is not a problem. Humanity has found ways to travel all of the world rapidly and with ease, in the form of aircraft and ships.

If the energy resources are too much for you the blimp and zeppelin are great methods - with today's materials and knowledge we could build them far, far safer than the Hindenburg filled with hydrogen and covered in flammable cloth. Perhaps that could be one of the industries developed and sold from the nation? An export item?

Or if you do prefer ship travel wind power is still there. We gave it up for the "faster" steam, however we have come along way since the days of the cloth sail, there are other options such as fixed wing designs: http://www.wingsails.com/cetiri.html The only reason why these are not being applied to larger cargo type craft is because mankind is lazy or because we are an oil based economy that doesn't care to invest the time and energy? There are a lot of different designs out there, a few innovators who due to lack of funds and no market closed up shop. A few years ago a man designed a sail boat which used an aluminum wing and was piloted from the cockpit with throttle controls and steering wheel. He closed shop because he couldn't sell the boat.

He couldn't sell the boat because when it comes to sail power people want whipping sail cloth and are trying to harken back to the day when... Not because they are looking at an economical and modern approach to transport across the water.

Need energy? We all know of solar and wind power - again I point out http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.06/craven.html same basic technology this time converting the energy into electricity.

How tall can a building be built? Now days soil and geology does not stand in the way of impressive structure being built. We know how to sink pylons deep down to stabilize the foundation. There are some very tall structures build on reclaimed land, sand, and other geologically unstable materials that start off with deep pylons which reach down to bed rock.

Miami is a good example, all of those tall hotels do not set on stone, they are set on stand with pylon supports making it possible for them to sit and not sink into the sand/coral of Florida as close to the beach as possible. Resorts, got to love them.

Food. If you are thinking of crop lands that stretch out into the horizon, using lots of chemical fertilizers, pesticides and requiring irrigation either through canal or pipes then yes, it is a problem.

But we are kind of smart, as apes go. We choose the old methods because it it cheap and there is land available, however there are methods that can be instituted where vertical acreage can be had. Hydroponics comes to mind, many organic successive planting methods are also intensive growth methods, meaning each plant is place closer together maximizing the soil area.  If you think about it lettuce only needs two feet of vertical space - if you tray and stack or "shelf" lettuce you can on the same amount of land area triple or quadruple the land area. This can be done either through artificial lighting, or through narrow "shelves, which maximize angled light. Since the sun moves across the sky spending little time directly over head your plant can get its required 8 hours of direct sunlight. BTW many vegetable plants have small root systems, the requirement of land us usually for the top growth (leaves and fruit) and for the ease of presently use machines to cultivate and harvest the field. In which I add that those machines are so 20th century - we can do better.

Considering that most islands will not have a natural supply of fresh water, then you are going to have to irrigate the crops anyways - might as well move the water up as well as out.

Further, and Island is surrounded by water, in that water is fish and algae, and kelps - plenty of people eat these sorts of foods on a near daily basis. It isn't too difficult to farm the ocean surface either.

Any other problems? I'm willing to bet that any problem you think of there is already a solution, maybe not being used due to present economic systems in place, but a solution nonetheless.



According to obituary notices, a mean and useless citizen never dies.

Mogul

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Re: Land Ideas (new and old)
« Reply #51 on: Sun, Jul 23, 2006, 22:16 »

Unincorporated territories have yet to make this permanent transition into the territory of the state. Consequently, they may be legally transferred to some other national entity. [..] The US takes its strategic interests very seriously, no matter how trivial that strategic value might be.

Good to know. :) I think the US of our days is a rather unequal partner for us to mess with, especially about territories which are of some value to this (world's most well armed) nation.

My chief concern is both the smallness and remoteness of locations suggested thus far (both here and by others). If we are discussing a homeland for tens of thousands of people, if not millions, we are talking about a rather large patch of dirt. Even if we are talking about a symbolic city-state, we are still talking about a rather large patch of dirt.

The sucess of a settlement to become a polis depends on several variables, among them the size of the area, moderate temperatures, availability of fresh water and food, building materials and the physical connection to the rest of the world. It is obviously, that we will have to make compromises in respect of one or other criterion - the prize question is what can be substituted and what is more essential. On the other hand, the area in question must not be doomed to failure because of some cumulated disadvantages.

The sea water can be transformed into fresh water through inverse osmosis (or destillation) and be used for agriculture. The lacking size of the area can be overcome if the ground is sufficiently solid to carry very high buildings (population densities of 20,000 per kmē are not uncommon in modern cities) and/or a limited expansion (e.g.into sea) is possible. Nevertheless, for a city of 500.000 inhabitants, at least an area of 25 kmē seems necessary. Neither Clipperton, nor any other insular suggestion we had so far, seems really suitable for such a plan: Clipperton has certain charm, but one can't build very high buldings on coral material.

Quite another question is where to start. Can't we consider some temporary solution and in the meantime gather our ressources for the next step? This would on the one hand give us some immediate advantages (e.g. for our refugees), but on the other hand it might endanger the project entirely because we than "would already have some territorium" and the readiness to grant us additional place would decrease severely. I do not know the answer - we only must consider that before we can take over responsibility for a large partition of land, we must be organizatory ready to make this step. 

Naturally, some have discarded the idea of urbanism. I think this unwise, but they are welcome to live as they please. No matter how isolated, the Gay people will not be well-served by a primitive village. [..] If an island is to be chosen, it needs to be within a reasonable, economically viable distance from an inhabited, non-hostile mainland.

Some Greek island would suit well, but the political prospectives for a secession are currently not exorbitantly high. The maximum we can hope for, is to buy/rent an entire island on conditions of extraterritoriality, while at the same time leaving the formal souvereignty with Greeks. This concept formally equals the concept of a military base, with the exception that we would gather refugees and not weapons there.

Urbanism as a life style seems attracting the most people of this earth - even if they have sufficient territories. We being short on territory should naturally choose this form of living together - we simply have not much choice.
« Last Edit: Sun, Jul 23, 2006, 22:19 by Mogul »
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin

Feral

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Re: Land Ideas (new and old)
« Reply #50 on: Sun, Jul 23, 2006, 19:03 »

Climates do change, over time. Indeed they have changed. It is a geological certainty that Cato Island, for example, did not exist as an island as little as 6000 years ago. It used to lie under the surface of the sea. It takes no great leap of imagination to envision a time when it will again be entirely under water.

No prospective site will be without claimants or entanglements. Dealing with these is a matter for diplomacy.

My chief concern is both the smallness and remoteness of locations suggested thus far (both here and by others). If we are discussing a homeland for tens of thousands of people, if not millions, we are talking about a rather large patch of dirt. Even if we are talking about a symbolic city-state, we are still talking about a rather large patch of dirt.

I would recommend a brief study of Ekistics (oekistik in German), in particular the writings of Konstantinos Doxiadis.

Small can be entirely satisfactory if it is physically connected to the world around it. Three hundred miles (or more) of ocean does not qualify as "connected." Larger is, of course, better if any attempt at modern urbanism is to be contemplated.

Naturally, some have discarded the idea of urbanism. I think this unwise, but they are welcome to live as they please. No matter how isolated, the Gay people will not be well-served by a primitive village.

If an island is to be chosen, it needs to be within a reasonable, economically viable distance from an inhabited, non-hostile mainland. Otherwise, it must be large enough to provide the majority of the inhabitants' needs from the substance of the island itself. I would jokingly suggest Cuba, or Haiti.
Stonewall was a riot.

CensoredAgain

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Re: Land Ideas (new and old)
« Reply #49 on: Sun, Jul 23, 2006, 18:12 »

Navassa Island is also claimed by Haiti.  Further, California businessman Bill Warren has a claim against the island (using the Guano Islands Act) :Y

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navassa_Island   

Feral

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Re: Land Ideas (new and old)
« Reply #48 on: Sun, Jul 23, 2006, 17:47 »

There are two questions then arising:

  • Does "strategic location" mean a piece of land with some real military value, or is this solely an euphemismus for a "useless, but prestigious posession?"
  • What exactly does the expression "unincorporated territory" mean in the US legal lexics?


"Strategic location" in this instance is a military term. The island's strategic value comes from its closeness to Guantanamo Bay. Given recent changes in the region, that strategic value is probably seen as even greater now. In the current diplomatic climate, I would disqualify this location on that basis. While the reasoning of the US may at times seem suspect, the word "strategic" is never used euphemistically -- there are always guns, missiles, and warships behind this term.

On its own, without other factors, the status of "unincorporated territory" is quite positive.

"Incorporated and Unincorporated Territories"

Quote
An incorporated territory of the United States is a specific area under the jurisdiction of the United States, over which the United States Congress has determined that the United States Constitution is to be applied to the territory's inhabitants in its entirety (e. g. citizenship, trial by jury), in the same manner as it applies to the citizens of the U.S. states. In contrast, an unincorporated territory is an area under U.S. jurisdiction, to which only certain "natural" protections (e.g. freedom of speech, due process) of the Constitution, as well as any specific parts Congress has added, apply.

The term "incorporated" in this sense does not refer to the act of creating a civil government entity (e.g. a city or a town).

Incorporation as it applies to territories is regarded as a permanent condition. Once incorporated, an incorporated territory can no longer be de-incorporated; that is, it can never be excluded from the jurisdiction of the United States Constitution.

These incorporated territories form a federacy with the United States.

(The emphasis is mine.)

Unincorporated territories have yet to make this permanent transition into the territory of the state. Consequently, they may be legally transferred to some other national entity.

Examples of unincorporated territories:

Quote
Unincorporated organized territories

    * Guam
    * Northern Mariana Islands (commonwealth)
    * Puerto Rico (commonwealth)
    * United States Virgin Islands

Unincorporated unorganized territories

    * American Samoa, technically unorganized, but self-governing under a constitution last revised in 1967
    * Baker Island, uninhabited
    * Howland Island, uninhabited
    * Jarvis Island, uninhabited
    * Johnston Atoll, no indigenous inhabitants, only military personnel and contractors
    * Kingman Reef, uninhabited
    * Midway Islands, no indigenous inhabitants, currently included in the Midway Atoll National Wildlife Refuge
    * Navassa Island, uninhabited (claimed by Haiti)
    * Wake Island, no indigenous inhabitants, only contractor personnel (claimed by the Marshall Islands)

It should be noted that the United States does not admit to the possibility of even the smallest scrap of its territory being severed from the country. While legally unincorporated territories might be disposed of by an Act of Congress, it is peculiar for it to happen. The Federated States of Micronesia, the Marshall Islands, Palau, Kiribati, and Commonwealth of the Philippines all managed to escape unincorporated territory status with little trouble. The removal of the Panama Canal Zone from this status roused considerable nationalist passions, but was accomplished all the same.

These places have all largely lost their strategic value to the US. In many instances the US retains its military interests as if nothing has changed and the independence of these islands is largely a matter of words on paper.

Certainly incorporated territories of the United States are out of the question. Unincorporated areas can be (and have been) peacefully negotiated for. The US takes its strategic interests very seriously, no matter how trivial that strategic value might be. It is unlikely that the US retains any unincorporated territories that do not have at least strategic value.
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CensoredAgain

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Re: Land Ideas (new and old)
« Reply #47 on: Sun, Jul 23, 2006, 15:46 »

I just realized that we also have to consider the effects of global warming and the possibility of rising sea levels; so elevation should also be a factor in choosing a land mass or area :WN

CensoredAgain

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Re: Land Ideas (new and old)
« Reply #46 on: Sun, Jul 23, 2006, 15:27 »

5.4 sq.km. = about 2.085 sq miles.  That really isn't that large of a land mass, so it would make it very difficult to create a viberant economy; also another concern I have about an island in that part of the caribbean is the frequency of hurricanes.  A hurricane hitting that small of an island would be extremly devistating.  I will however admit there are parts of the caribbean that are not hit by hurricanes and this land mass might be in that area however the land mass in question being 35 miles from Hati makes me think it is in the hurricane affected area of the carribean. :WN

Mogul

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Re: Land Ideas (new and old)
« Reply #45 on: Sun, Jul 23, 2006, 14:46 »

Navassa Island



Background: This uninhabited island was claimed by the US in 1857 for its guano. Mining took place between 1865 and 1898. The lighthouse, built in 1917, was shut down in 1996 and administration of Navassa Island transferred from the Coast Guard to the Department of the Interior. A 1998 scientific expedition to the island described it as a unique preserve of Caribbean biodiversity; the following year it became a National Wildlife Refuge and annual scientific expeditions have continued.

Location: Caribbean, island in the Caribbean Sea, 35 miles west of Tiburon Peninsula of Haiti.
Geographic coordinates: 18 25 N, 75 02 W    
Area: 5.4 sq km
Climate: marine, tropical    
Terrain: raised coral and limestone plateau, flat to undulating; ringed by vertical white cliffs (9 to 15 m high)    
Elevation extremes: unnamed location on southwest side 77 m    
Geography - note: strategic location 160 km south of the US Naval Base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba; mostly exposed rock but with enough grassland to support goat herds; dense stands of fig-like trees, scattered cactus
Dependency status: unincorporated territory of the US


Source: https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/bq.html

This is a very small location, but it has probably slightly better economic prospectives than many other candidates; while the political prospectives are less promising ("strategic [..] unincorporated territory of the US"). There are two questions then arising:

  • Does "strategic location" mean a piece of land with some real military value, or is this solely an euphemismus for a "useless, but prestigious posession?"
  • What exactly does the expression "unincorporated territory" mean in the US legal lexics?
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin

CensoredAgain

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Re: Land Ideas (new and old)
« Reply #44 on: Thu, Apr 20, 2006, 06:27 »

$35.000.000 US will buy a 35.000 acre (141.63996 square kilometers or 54.6875 square miles) private island 60 miles west of Baja California (Mex) Keep in mind Andorra is 175 square miles/ca.453.25 square kilometers Liechtenstein is 62 square miles/ca.160.5 square kilometers Luxembourg is 998 square miles/ca.2.584.8 square kilometers Malta is 122 square miles/ca. 315.9 square kilometers Monaco is 0.6 square miles/ca. 0.155 square kilometers San Marino is 24 square miles/ca.62.2 square kilometers.

Sounds good to me but the Falklands have over 12.173 square kilometers/ca.4700 square miles with a population of 2,967 which translates into ca. 0.6 persons per square mile compared to the Azores 2,333 square kilometers/ca. 900 square miles with a population of ca. .237795 translating to 264.2 people per square mile.
  :E

Mogul

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Re: Land Ideas (new and old)
« Reply #43 on: Mon, Apr 17, 2006, 16:41 »

After reading all the posts on this subject I decided to voice some concerns I think are being over looked such as: Montserrat’s volcanic disaster in the Carribean; Rising sea levels are flooding low level islands leading the abandonment of the island nation of Tuvalu in the Pacific and the devastation of poorly planned settlements such as New Orleans. [..]

Yes, the "reef solution" bears severe risks of beeing overflooded by the rising ocean level or even by a higher well. If we had the possibility to choose freely, a 100 km2 - 400 km2 area in mild climate would be nice - e.g. the islands of Lesbos or Cyprus could be an ideal place for our republic, from the geographical point of view. Of course, all such nice places are already occupied by some people or other, so the only realistic methode to gain political control over such areas would be the step-by-step migration and buy-out of property.

Politically, it will be easier to purchase/occupy uninhabited territories with less fortunate geographical tokens - lacking ressources, having no fresh water or located in harsh climate. With sufficient will and financial ressources it is possible to create safe and comfortable environment - thanks to engineering and electrical power. It is technically possible to find a satisfying solution for every of the described problems - but where shall all the money come? At least the land mass should be stable.

Though, hand upon heart - wouldn't we take any offer? E.g. if Clipperton shall fall into our hands, we could put buildings on stocks to prevent overflooding, the agriculture can be based on swimming islands in the lagoon, etc. 

"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin
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