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Author Topic: Land Ideas (new and old)  (Read 22596 times)

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CensoredAgain

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Re: Land Ideas (new and old)
« Reply #42 on: Fri, Apr 14, 2006, 08:08 »

After reading all the posts on this subject I decided to voice some concerns I think are being over looked such as: Montserrat’s volcanic disaster in the Carribean; Rising sea levels are flooding low level islands leading the abandonment of the island nation of Tuvalu in the Pacific and the devastation of poorly planned settlements such as New Orleans.

Just some extra criteria to consider when choosing a homeland so far I like the 35K acres in the Sea of Cortes or the Falklands but the climate of the Falklands does give one pause
:E

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Re: New Land Ideas
« Reply #41 on: Sat, Mar 04, 2006, 13:33 »


For those after land carved out of States in a process of disintegration,there is Colombia.Part of it,some say up to one third,is not controled by the colombian government.Colombia is like a cross between hell and paradise.It is a very dangerous place.But it also has the most handsome and horny young men I have ever met.I have travelled twice to Colombia,and I remember fondly of its yound men,its Puyana cigars and its Tres Esquinas
white rhum.

K6

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Re: New Land Ideas
« Reply #40 on: Thu, Mar 02, 2006, 15:12 »

Chatam Islands
[/color]

Another candidate is the group of the Chatam Islands, belonging to New Zealand and located 800 km to the east of its coast.

Only two major islands are populated:  Chatham (750 persons / 90 km˛) and Pitt Island (38 persons / 6,2 km˛), the others are very small. The islands have a local government and are not entirely unlikely to seceed from NZ.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chatham_Islands
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Re: New Land Ideas
« Reply #39 on: Wed, Mar 01, 2006, 21:12 »

There is an island called "Isla del Coco", which belongs to Costa Rica and located 600 km off the coast. The island encompasses 23 sq km and is covered by rain forest. Though declared to be a National Park, it seems that the government of Costa Rica does not have much interest and money to exercise effective control about the island. Some informations can be found also here:

http://www.isladelcoco.com/theisland.html

I do not know how far this "Isla del Coco" is away from Clipperton, but in case of necessety both could belong to one state rightfully...
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin

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Re: New Land Ideas
« Reply #38 on: Wed, Oct 19, 2005, 09:13 »

I don't think you are going to find anyplace on this planet then!  If you just consider the numbers alone.  I think a good estimate of Gay and Lesbians on this Earth is 500 million.  I believe that is conservative.  If you take another very conservative number, 1% of those need sanctuary from actions as diverse as plain harrassment to execution, you'd have to accomodate 5 million!

Jaix, as I already replied to your message in general at the "Gay Homeland"-board (http://forum.gayrepublic.org/index.php?topic=17.msg453#msg453), I would like to treat solely the issue of potential immigration conflux in this posting. If we disregard the "Vaticanesque solution" on this place and concentrate on a tiny but territorial country, what will be the amount of refugees and how much place is required then really?

If we assume the overall amount of gay/lesbian population to be 500 million people, we should take into consideration that not all of them are really conscious of being gay/lesbian. As the homosexuality is a taboo in most oppressive societies, young people often can not understand the signals of their bodies and their hearts. Many would not admit even to themselves that they are "gay", as this category mostly is unknown to them as the only descriptions they know are equivalents of "pervert", "faggot", "cock-sucker" and "bum-fucker". Therefor we should count only those who know what they really are and are ready to emigrate. Even if we take a more conservative percentage of refugees to be 0,1 % of our over-all population, there are still 500.000 individuals to be accomodated.

Well, 500.000 is a large number. On the other hand, all these people would find place in one single city. If we assume that all of them choose an urban life style, the minimum space required can be estimated at 100 km2, better 400 km2. I don't think we need to escape to Antarktic or to the moon to acquire an area of 10*10 km or even 20*20 km. Indeed, a larger farm in the US, Canada, Russia, Australia or elsewhere would suffice, if we would only manage to achieve independence. Our difficulties are in the politics, not that much in the territory.

What is predestined to fail in small, can succeed in large. Why on earth should somebody go to a barren rock in the ocean, if there is no food, no job oppurtunities, no library or internet, and only 100 or 200 other people who probably will bog down in quarrels out of boredom? If we shall dare this enterprise at all, we must offer people a vision of a normal life with usuall comforts and civilisatory achievements. Having the prospective to achieve some economic wealth and not only political indipendence, our people would be more willingly to actually emigrate to the gay country. The most difficult part of the project is to achieve guaranties for free gay immigration to the area and to establish a settlement of at least 2.000 inhabitants - this would suffice to make the project more than a pipe dream and draw serious attention to it.  Once there is a city of more than 300.000 inhabitants, the material and social incentives could become that much attractive, that the countries population probably would burst to the said 5 million in a short time.
 :=SU
« Last Edit: Wed, Oct 19, 2005, 09:34 by Mogul »
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin

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Re: New Land Ideas
« Reply #37 on: Wed, Sep 28, 2005, 08:17 »

Vicky!

I don't think you are going to find anyplace on this planet then!  If you just consider the numbers alone.  I think a good estimate of Gay and Lesbians on this Earth is 500 million.  I believe that is conservative.  If you take another very conservative number, 1% of those need sanctuary from actions as diverse as plain harrassment to execution, you'd have to accomodate 5 million!  So I see any state as more of a "vaticanesque" mouthpiece for our people.  I think given some of the peculiarities of the American justice system, citizenship in the GLCK could be used to an advantage here.

Perhaps in time, with a robust economy, and a national will, we might make more land like the Palm Islands of Dubai, or enclose areas of the Palmer Penisula under glass, or even (I'll not live to see it probably) colonize the moon!
But it greatly hinges on nation consciousness building, a coalesance of a national identity for Gays and Lesbians the world over.  That is why the Commonwealth prefers to do things the way it is doing them. (Duarchs and some pomp and circumstance)
Your way, with a board and incorporation, by laws and such, makes excellent sense, if you were starting a new car company.  But it doesn't fire hope and imagination and loyalty. Don't get me wrong.  I respect the GLR, and a Gay Nation will need you, to actually make it run, nuts and bolts, economy and business.  I wouldn't think of going to Clipperton without the GLR!

Jaix

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Re: New Land Ideas
« Reply #36 on: Tue, Sep 27, 2005, 13:30 »

Well, at the moment things are in discussion - and Clipperton is of course on the list, like many other proposals.

The good thing about Clipperton is, of course, it's instant availability: we could fly over to Mexico, rent/buy a transportation vehicle (water/air) and occupy Clipperton for us. With some boldness we could stick there and declare it our property and declare it the seat of the "Gay Government" and build a little palace within a week - this even won't cost much. The tropical climate, sun and water would make Clipperton not that bad a place for a residency or a holyday trip.

But, there is a big drawback with Clipperton - it's too small. It's limited size makes it suitable for the seat of a micronation, but it's not big enough for a long-term developement. If we really do want offer refuge for persecuted GLBT-people, there will be need for actual place for them to live and work on.

At the end, no one can (at the present time point) say with certainty, what is the actual need of the gay people. Do we really need an own country like Israel, or would a kinda gay Vatican serve our needs the best? Depending on the answer to this question, either Falklands or Clipperton would probably be the best solutions. My personal belief is, that we need a rather large place to make it an actual sanctuary, but my personal belief is not necessarily the one which would turn out to be the true one. Within the group there are certainly also some different opinions about this subject.

As far it's in our power, we would be of course supportive to any serious attempt to establish a gay homeland on this Earth -  be it a functioning democratic micronation, a colony within an existing nation or a mass migration to a thin-populated area to establish a real gay self-administration. Shall Commonwealth really establishe something on Clipperton, we of course would send a representative officer there - when we will be actually able to do so.
  :L
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin

Jaix

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Re: New Land Ideas
« Reply #35 on: Tue, Sep 27, 2005, 07:25 »

Viktor,

Has the GLR crossed Clipperton totally off your list? It has a lot going for it.  Yes France has the title, but the island is vacant, can support colonists for sure, and has the potential for development.  You need not worry about living with Commonwealth people....I think that except for minor window dressing we share the same aspirations.  I was hoping to include GLR people in an expedition in a couple of years.
Besides wearing a thong in the Falklands just insn't practicable!
Clipperton has wind, fresh water, palm and coconut trees, and I understand the cruise ships and tuna fisher ships go right by it.  The lagon used to have a connection to the sea but it got blocked.  If we divided the lagoon into a fresh water 2/3 and a harbor 1/3 it would have about everything.
We could possibly work out something with France like Andorra.
Just a thought....

Jaix

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Re: New Land Ideas
« Reply #34 on: Sun, Sep 25, 2005, 15:29 »

Falkland Islands
[/color]

Copyright (picture): Falkland Islands Development Corporation ©2004

This solution appears more and more suitable to me. I remember my conversation with Peter (Vizier) who actually suggested Falklands for us to settle on. Initially I was rather sceptical about Falklands, as the climate was reported to be a bit harsh and I doubted that United Kingdom would grant the islands some souvereignity. But facts prove I was wrong.

The islands enjoy certain level of self-administration though HIM Queen Elizabeth II. remains the formal head of state. Britons provide solely for the defence and the foreign policy, the internal administration is executed by the Falklanders themselves. The economy is not very strong but sufficient, and there is much potencial for developement. The main source of income is fishery and sheep farming, but some vegetables for locals and the fishermen are produced in glass-house hydroculture as well. Electric power may be provided by wind power generators thanks to permanent winds in the area - this is important as the countries economy may be completely independent from oil supplies.

The temperatures are reported to be from 0°C to +14°C, the local flora being rather poor therefore. There are some small trees and extense areas are covered by grass - good for sheeps, of course. The yearly precipitation is about 600 ml/m2, more than sufficient I guess.

The immigration policy is not restrictive, however the applicants have to provide proves that they have a job contract and an accommodation on the islands. What is required to receive the citizenship, should be investigated.

As there are less than 3.000 citizens on the islands, it would be easy to achieve political influence on the islands interior politics - we just would need a steady immigration and pursuing our interests by legal means. The islands are protected by the UK, we would just need to keep the status quo while pursing our specific interests. The population density is 0.27/km2 so it's rather unlikely to meet some hostility from the native citizens, especially when we cooperate with them while establishing infrustructure and bring more capital, working power and know-how. The basic infrastructure is already there, we will solely need to buy land, build dwellings and establish busines activities of some kind, and negotiate with local autorities for visas for our people, wich we would recruit in our agencies spread all over the world. 

To avoid some hostilities, we should not proclaim some "takeover" as our primary goal, this would just couse hard feelings against us from the locals. The primary goal would be to establish functioning gay-lesbian communities there in peacefull co-existence with the locals and make the Falklands a homeland welcoming gay immigrants. With time, the political majority can be achieved by simple increase of population through gay-lesbian migration, but it would be rather unfair to pursue any mistreatment of the natives in case this should be actually achieved. Simple political majority would suffice, and the immigration structure will do the rest. If you look on the birth rates, there is no serious danger that the heterosexual population might endanger the GLBT-majority if our people take the call for immigration seriously. In beginning, we can formally establish our communities there and help our people with jobs, education, business credits and social services - here we can learn from the catholic church a lot (they really are good in such things). We even could issue marriage certificates before the local legislation recognizes them - our people will. Open up a locall MCC office and a buddist temple and you will have all your religious privileges.  >:)

As to the bad weather: hey, we could build glass-houses and make there tropical paradises inside - the energy supplies can be secured by the modern wind power stations. Even Swedish and Norwegians are enjoying high level of comforts, so why not? It will be solely in our hands to actually make this place a near-by-paradise. And don't tell me our people would not come there as they are mostly overeducated and oversensitive - all these sissies can work very hard if they wish, believe in me.

There is surelly also a serious touristic potential there - not the usuall sun-bathing, but rather an interesting nature-oriented tourism. There are lots of pinguins (and sheep) there, so some interested youth and pensioners could spend good time in observation of their habits and enjoying the landscapes.

The more I think about the topic, the more Falklands appear a suitable solution for us - a realistic step-by-step approach with a very good outcome possible, if we really want it. No need to suffer hunger and abolish the civilisation, no need to vegetate somewhere in the jungle. And still a realistic prospective to make it a place for our people for all times, with a strong military guardian on our side for the next 50 or 100 years. As the case of Falklands is still in discussion between the UK and Argentina, it is entirely possible that at the end we indeed might gain the entire souvereignity, shall we wish it. However, it would be smart to stay with the UK so long - as member of the European Union it is likely to be the best choice for economic and social developement for the next future. Any forecasts for long-term developement lack real sense, but the government would be always well-advised to seek cooperation with democratic and powerfull partners to protect self-determination of the Islands.

Quotations from the various websites:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

The Falkland Islands are an archipelago in the South Atlantic Ocean, lying east of southern Argentina at 51°45′ S 59°00′ W. They have a total land area of 12,173 km˛, approximately the same area as Connecticut or Northern Ireland, and a coastline estimated at 1,288 km.

Much of the land is part of the two main islands separated by the Falkland Sound: East Falkland, home to the capital of Port Stanley and the majority of the population, and West Falkland. Both islands have mountain ranges, rises to 705 m at Mount Usborne on East Falkland. There are also some boggy plains, most notably Lafonia, the southern half of East Falkland. Virtually the entire area of the islands is used as pasture for sheep.

Smaller islands surround the main two. They include Barren Island, Beaver Island, Bleaker Island, Carcass Island, George Island, Keppel Island, Lively Island, New Island, Pebble Island, Saunders Island, Sealion Island, Speedwell Island, Staats Island, Weddell Island, West Point Island. The Jason Islands lie to the north west of the main archipelago, and Beauchene Island some distance to its south.

The islands claim a territorial sea of 12 nautical miles (22 km) and an exclusive fishing zone of 200 nautical miles (370 km), which has been a source of conflict with Argentina.

The Falkland Islands have a cold marine climate with strong westerly winds. It is generally cloudy and humid; rain occurs on more than half the days in a typical year. Snow is rare, but can occur at almost any time of year.


From Falkland Islands Development Corporation's Website:

"The Falkland Islands are located in the South Atlantic approximately 300 miles east of the South American coast.

The majority of the 2,379 people that live in the Falkland Islands (excluding an estimated 112 residents temporarily absent and 534 civilians based at Mount Pleasant military base) are of British descent. 1,989 live in the capital, Stanley, and the remainder live in settlements or on family farms around the islands. English is spoken on the Falkland Islands.

The economy of the Falkland Islands was traditionally based on revenue from sheep ranching. However, with the creation of a conservation and management zone around the islands in 1986, income from a major offshore fishery has become the driver of economic growth. The Islands are now economically self-sufficient and investment in new facilities and services has brought about major improvements in the standard of living."



(CIA Factbook)


Copyright: NASA/MODIS Rapid Response System
Links:

Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkland_Islands
Government: http://www.falklands.gov.fk/
Falkland Islands Development Corporation http://www.falklandislands.com/
The Falkland Islands Company: http://www.the-falkland-islands-co.com/
Tourism: http://www.tourism.org.fk/
Pinguines: http://www.falklands.net/
Falkland Islands Holding: http://www.fihplc.com/
Telephone & Internet: http://www.cwfi.co.fk/services.html
« Last Edit: Sun, Sep 25, 2005, 19:57 by Mogul »
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Re: New Land Ideas
« Reply #33 on: Tue, Sep 20, 2005, 13:55 »

What about South America?

There are some interesting low-populated countries with a medium level of political stability there. The land is rather cheap and large areas for any agricultural colonies could be purchased to dream conditions. E.g., in Paraguay there were some farms of 350 hectar available for 250.000 USD. Sure, it would be not very clever to come there and proclaim independency from one day to another, but functioning gay communities with a high level of self-administration were possible, I think.

Another country worth of discussion is Suriname - the former Dutch Guayana. The country is low populated (3 / km2), most of its 438.000-population lives in or around the capital Paramaribo, and at the Atlantic coast in general. This means, large areas deaper into the country are practically uninhabited. Now, the interesting part: Suriname has a boarder both to Brasilia and to French Guayana, which is part of France and can be visited by Europeans and US-Americans without problems. We could locate our legal basis in French Guyana and operate from there enjoining all the advantages of political and economical stability. The border between Suriname and French Guayana is (as to my best knowledge) the river Marowijne. Now, if we legally establish a colony in Suriname somewhere on the rivercoast of Marowijne, there should be no problem at all to deliver supplies to this colony. Neither it would be a problem to ship supplies from the Atlantic, should we ever come into posession of an own marine. Though I am not familiar with the immigration policy of Suriname, it is probably not that much restrictive. As long as we don't undertake some stupid illigal activities like premature secession or alike, there should be no problems with visas. We can establish our own rules in our settlements, with our local marriage customs and so on. What does it matter the official government in Paramaribo does not recognize our marriage certificates? Our local communities will. We would be just another tribe of indians there, but hopefully with better infrastructure and a higher life standart.

Alternatively we could negotiate with France to sell us some part of French Guayana (population: 196.000) on conditions that we have unlimited gay immigration into our territory but remain associated with France for military and economic purposes. Without such an agreement it would be rather difficult to get visas for our people from poor countries, as French Guyana is a departament of France and subject to french and european law with restricting immigration policy. Of course, no one would probably control our illegal villages somewhere in the jungle, but we don't want to mess with French Foreign Legion, do we? Btw, France recognizes same-sex relationships at least at the level of civil partnership, a further progress is likeable. Those, who prefere the "island solution" could be probably satisfied as well, when the territory would be located at the riverside or at the Atlantic coast. In case there is a wish for a water ditch, the isolationists could easily dig one. :)

The prospectives for an economical developement appear limited, but sufficient at any case. There are basic natural ressources in both countries in excess, including agricultural products and building materials. And this is what we would need most, right? Some touristic industry is located in Kourou, as well as the the European space center. We could expand our economical activities for gay tourists, who could attach some trips to Kourou and into jungle with visiting our facilities.



Informations could be achieved here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suriname
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Guiana
Official representation of Suriname to the UN: http://www.un.int/suriname/
An interesting page about Suriname with many infos: http://www.surinam.net/
« Last Edit: Tue, Sep 20, 2005, 15:40 by Mogul »
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Re: New Land Ideas
« Reply #32 on: Sat, Sep 03, 2005, 17:32 »

I suppose the reason why islands are desireable is indeed, the sense of isolation, which indicates a "just leave us alone" attitude, as well as the fact that they are detached land masses. Detached=already physically separated=halfway there?

Further, with the exception of Great Britain's rather Brobdignagian defense of the Falklands and that place called Cato Island, most islands which have declared their independence in recent times have largely gone unchallenged and eventually even achieved diplomatic recognition.

Samoa sounds wonderful, but again, as Solo points out - will people just welcome us with open arms?

Here's probably the nicest locale I have found to date: http://www.tropical-islands.com/Grenada.htm. Water? Check. Acreage: 400. Location: Caribbean. Uninhabited? Check. Infrastructure already on hand: 4 uninhabited houses. Vegetation: Lush. Let's go!  :R More views: http://www.privateislandsonline.com/caillecbgr.htm#

Then again, some people don't like the tropics, so here is a new location off pro-gay Canada which might be interesting. It's larger than the preceding (1000 acres vs 440) - 3.5 Km x 1.5 Km, about 1.5 Kms from the mainland with land holding on the mainland (which could be sold or used to establish a ferry dock and "welcome center").

More, quoting the web ad: Approximately 1.9 kilometers of roads were built on the island a few years ago...The island is nicely treed with cultivated areas where white tail deer roam (Food!?  :=SU) The northern end of the Island has a 40' x 80' metal building and four cottages that were originally built for maintenance staff...   Nearby is a government national park with 15 kilometres of oceanfront and sand beaches. The town of Liverpool is approximately 15 kilometres by boat and approximately a 30 minute drive away. The property is a two hour drive from Halifax International Airport with daily flights to many destinations in the USA and Europe. In addition, the Yarmouth airport is only one hour away--great for private planes or connecting flights to Halifax. Yarmouth also has two ferries operating to the USA: one from Portland and the second one from Bar Harbour. Both trips are just under three hours."  Anybody have $11 million to spare? Photos for this one: http://www.privateislandsonline.com/southshoreisland.htm
« Last Edit: Sat, Sep 03, 2005, 17:48 by Vizier »
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Re: New Land Ideas
« Reply #31 on: Tue, Jul 26, 2005, 10:16 »

Well...  I've been thinking since suicide is HIGH among my 'other' people...  let's just move now.  They'll start dropping like flies and we won't have to pay a dime.  *cackle*  I'm KIDDING!

I will look into the surrounding land masses.  What if we proposed to lay claim to a land mass to-be-formed from volcanic activity?  I wasn't thinking Samoa would be too keen on our doing them "American" style and just pushing them over to one island.

I found the Merriewood.com site to be fascinating.  Thanks for that.  I learned a couple things that i didn't know before, but trust the logic behind it.  I suppose I've been spoiled on my trips over there, as a "Euronesian".  Upolu has two German mansions on it.  My family owns them both.  One, in fact, is the house my grandmother was raised in and raised her family of thirteen children in.  Uh huh, thirteen.  Anyway, I'll check with some family officials and see what they say before I decide to do whatever it is I do, since I rarely listen to my family's advice, which is typical for one blessed/cursed with my name - as it is Chief's Name/Title. 
[/color] 
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"I keep my ideals, because in spite of everything I still believe that people are really good at heart."-- Anne Frank (1929-45), German Jewish refugee, diarist, captured and sent to concentration camp.

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Re: New Land Ideas
« Reply #30 on: Tue, Jul 26, 2005, 07:42 »

Why not? :) The population is slightly higher than 177 thousands of people, decreasing as many people leave the country - seeking for a better future, I suppose. Do you know something about the Samoan immigration policy and what their exact views on homosexuals are? As far as I understand, the law system is derived from the british common law with elements of tribal democracy. Can you make a  search for more informations?

There might be just one little problem: Do you think the Samoans would let us take over their country? ;D ;D ;D I also would be rather unwilling to steal land from some poor people...

Some informations are available on the CIA Factbook via internet:

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ws.html


Copyright: CIA, www.cia.gov

Personally, I enjoyed the report on this website the most:

http://www.merriewood.com/pacific/wsamoa1.html
« Last Edit: Tue, Jul 26, 2005, 08:39 by Mogul »
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Re: New Land Ideas
« Reply #29 on: Tue, Jul 26, 2005, 02:57 »

Have you considered Samoa?  Probably NOT American Samoa (Pago Pago) as western civilization may have contaminated them to the point where they've adopted the "American" view towards sexuality, but Western Samoa (currently known as the Independent State of Samoa) consisting of two large bodies: Savaii and Upolu, and numerous smaller land masses surrounding them.
Traditionally, Samoans didn't have hate-issues for homosexuality.  They don't today, to my knowledge, but they are rapidly assimilating many "Western Ways".  Samoa being small enough where many folks know just about everyone, or the parents of that person is common, and it's always been this way.  Homosexuality in small nations like this never had a need to hate within their own community.  That's what Tonga was for.  *wink*  Being occupied for twenty-five generations by another island nation reinforces national ties, leaving other issues as they are... irrelevant.
If you like, I'll look into it, but I just assumed Samoa is too out of the way and many stipulations apply like, the airport is open once or twice a week and no more.  The locals don't like the idea of heavy air traffic and the pollution that comes with accomodating lay-overs and such.  There's a ton of other cultural practices in place as well, but if you're willing to consider it, I'll do the research.  Let me know!   ;D 

By the way, Solo IS my real name.  A Samoan name.
Solo, the one and only.

"I keep my ideals, because in spite of everything I still believe that people are really good at heart."-- Anne Frank (1929-45), German Jewish refugee, diarist, captured and sent to concentration camp.

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Re: New Land Ideas
« Reply #28 on: Sat, Jun 11, 2005, 05:11 »

Or this one in Chily: San Pedro Island, Patagonia, approx. 16,000 acres, USD 16,000,000:

http://www.vladi-private-islands.de/sales_islands/sites/07_sanpedro_1.html

The climate is also rather less agreeable, but the territory is at any case suitable! ;D


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"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin
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