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Author Topic: Gay Realpolitiks  (Read 17293 times)

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Re: Gay Realpolitiks
« Reply #68 on: Thu, Jun 01, 2006, 12:28 »

We can discuss about "proper" and "improper" behavior, but please consider that it is an illusion that one can set up a legislation framework and then bow and bend people untill they will fit into this framework of "ideal citizens".

The idea is not so much to impose a framework of behavior than to procede to an inventory of the already existing habits,particularly those
which gays in different parts of the world appear to have in common.I am myself a gay individual 24 hours out of 24,and therefore interested
more in permanent attitudes than in spectacular but punctual ones.Or than in formal aspects of political organization,behind which there might
be no permanent practical action or attitude.An age in which a gay independentist movement will develop and flourish will also be one in which
gays will differenciate themselves much more marquedly from heterosexuals than heretofore.Without such a differenciation,gay political independence either (and most likely) cannot get started,or has zero chances of success.

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Re: Gay Realpolitiks
« Reply #67 on: Thu, Jun 01, 2006, 08:28 »


I know that your approach of gay self-determination is based on the single gay individual who acts morally and politically as a representative of the ideal gay state. I imagine the Gay State in a rather conventional manner: as an entity regulating internal and external matters of an organized
group of people who identify themeselves as gay. In my understanding, the state must serve the interests of the people, not the other way.

If the gay individual,imperfect as we find him in real life and on the street,nevertheless has and affirms certain characteristics having to do with
independence and self-determination,the State itself will eventually and only constitute the cherry on the sundae,a detail.People create States,
not the other way around.

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Re: Gay Realpolitiks
« Reply #66 on: Thu, Jun 01, 2006, 08:22 »

The problem which I see is not only the lack of support for gay separatism, but the general political passivity of gay population.

Perhaps it is as well like that.We will eventually encounter gays or members of other sexual minorities who will completely and radically oppose
our political designs.That they will have to rely on a passive constituency to counter us is not per se a bad thing.Or that they fear seeing their sexual orientation disclosed in the course of a public argument with us.They will thus probably prefer shutting up and let us do the talk.

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Mogul

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Re: Gay Realpolitiks
« Reply #65 on: Thu, Jun 01, 2006, 07:44 »

We should rather start with the basics: the citizen and his proper behavior as a political agent and instrument of gay self-determination.When we have a critical number of individuals behaving as citizens,then perhaps - I say perhaps - we can start discussing about functions,titles and forms of organization.

I do not agree with this notion - we must work with real people as they are and not as they should be. If we had to wait untill some "ideal type" of a gay person evolves, the gay self-determination will newer come. No, the really existing states and organizations teach us every day that greate successes are possible with existing, imperfect human beings as they are - as long as they are clear of their common interests and goals. We can discuss about "proper" and "improper" behavior, but please consider that it is an illusion that one can set up a legislation framework and then bow and bend people untill they will fit into this framework of "ideal citizens".

I know that your approach of gay self-determination is based on the single gay individual who acts morally and politically as a representative of the ideal gay state. I imagine the Gay State in a rather conventional manner: as an entity regulating internal and external matters of an organized
group of people who identify themeselves as gay. In my understanding, the state must serve the interests of the people, not the other way. Of course, before we can talk about "state" we must gather a significant amount of individuals identifying as members of the gay nation, and have established administrative structures as far as they are required. For example, in an organization acting solely on the internet, the positions of a webmaster and a speaker are very important, while there is no need to entertain a "Minister of health" or a "Defence Minister", whereas in an isolated gay village it is exactly the other way.

Therefore we must contemplate what our goals are, what actions must be taken (internet posting, hardcopy publishing, street actions, establishing a settlement ot a permanent camp?), and consider appropriate organizatory structures.

The present situation suits me: a central discussion place in the present forum,along with local individuals or small circles who could act on site and in real life,and report in the discussion place.The method of trial and error,all the more usefull that it will apply in real and different local conditions.An example of action on site which I once reported here is my withdrawal from participation in local canadian elections back in 1979.What steps gays from other parts of the world have taken on site and in their respective places in connection with local hethro elections is one practical subject among hundreds or thousands which could be discussed in this forum.

I am well aware that "many ways lead to Rome". Internet discussions and reporting is an essential contribution to the gay national movement, and I can perfectly live with the fact that you limit your activities to this field. My personal opinion is, however, that we must extend our actions into the physical world as well. This has two major reasons:

1) We must be able to interact with persons who never have heard of "gay nationalism" and therefore never come to the idea of making a search for our discussion forums via Google. Actually, most people do not spend much time on the Internet. Many of them are potentially susceptive to our ideas, so we must watch out for the means to reach this audience via printed magazines and direct propaganda on campuses, in bars and on gay pride events;

2) Collective efforts would enable us to put our activities on a more stable basis, than it is possible solely relying on "heroic efforts of singular individuals." Think of purchase, digitalization and translation of important literature, funding of art and research, establishing a camp for gay youth etc - all this requires money. Of course such high-flying plans will only be taken in consideration when we have sufficient number of members and finances, but somehow we have to start?

[..] This being said,gay organizations which have appeared a bit too quickly could dissapear as quickly,because of their lack of depht,preparation and dedication. [..] One serves the cause of gay self-determination during his entire life.

Only few individuals actually do dedicate their entire life to one idea. Nevertheless, there is a plentitude of organizations which are flourishing since decades (or even centuries), doing good job and generally being very successful. The secret of such organizations is a combination of dedication and ressources with a good, convincing idea. It is good to have idealists dedicating their life to such ideas, but they must have means for their work: without medicine and good supply "Medicines Sans Frontiers" would never be able to help anybody. In our situation, either our folks do not understand that every work requires ressources, or our idea is not convincing enough.

Gay political independence as a goal will not attract many individuals of the sedentary category with no taste for roaming or adventure.

The problem which I see is not only the lack of support for gay separatism, but the general political passivity of gay population. Regarding millions of gays in the western world, it is quite difficult to understand why so few actually do participate in matters of gay politics. For example, in Germany we have some 3.5 - 5.0 millions of adult homosexuals, of them only 3.000 are organized in the German Lesbian and Gay Association (LSVD), this makes less than 0.1% of Germany's gay population. It is generally a wonder, that any progress in gay rights was achieved at all.
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin

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Re: Gay Realpolitiks
« Reply #64 on: Wed, May 31, 2006, 13:08 »


If this doesn't sound like a suggestion to create an own territorial state for Uranians?  >:) Unfortunately, Mr Ulrichs was not able to create even such a little thing as an Uranian association - like he had planned. The reason was simple: from those "25.000 Uranians" (in truth, millions), may be a dozen would join, whereas the others were not at all interested in taking any action 

In the times of Mr Ulrichs,the world population was at around one billion.It is now at seven billion,and with far better and efficient systems of international communications.A gay independence movement could attract and involve over the years several millions of gays.But as one should expect,gays of a rather unilateral type.Gay political independence as a goal will not attract many individuals of the sedentary category with no taste
for roaming or adventure.I wouldn`t expect to see many stereotypical gays (as heterosexuals visualise them) showing up.

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Re: Gay Realpolitiks
« Reply #63 on: Wed, May 31, 2006, 12:38 »

Should someone occupy a tiny islet and populate it with 100 gays, that noble person has every good reason to call himself/herself if not an "Emperor", but at least a "Chieftain".

Or the "responsible person".This being said,gay organizations which have appeared a bit too quickly could dissapear as quickly,because of their lack of depht,preparation and dedication.I have often observed that phenomenon in seven years of participation in micropolitical forums,where organizations continuously enter and leave the stage.Most gay separatists groups will follow a similar path,untill one emerges which will display some measure of
continuity.Separatism is not exactly like a hobby in which one indulges only on week ends.It is,if I may express myself that way as an atheist,a priestly task.One serves the cause of gay self-determination during his entire life.

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Re: Gay Realpolitiks
« Reply #62 on: Tue, May 30, 2006, 12:03 »


Eventhough, from what we know, the first efforts to achieve a gay majority on a regional level go back into 1970th, when there was a plan to "overtake" a single county in the US.


Gays,throughout the 70s,tended to be radical politically.I should know,for I was then among the whole lot.But I think that most gay radicals then
banked on a major change in heterosexual societies,rather than on overtaking the said societies.That was the political fashion then,fuelled by the hethro political left,which itself and at that time thought it would overtake the world with its universalists utopias.It vanished in the mid and late 80s when we started to drop like flies because of the AIDS epidemic,and that the geopolitical center of the left - the USSR - disintegrated.

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Re: Gay Realpolitiks
« Reply #61 on: Tue, May 30, 2006, 11:47 »

Certainly, the form of organization must be adequate to the nature of its actions and purposes. I entirely agree with you that solely the extent of real competency determines between the dignity and the ridicule. Should someone occupy a tiny islet and populate it with 100 gays, that noble person has every good reason to call himself/herself if not an "Emperor", but at least a "Chieftain".

We should rather start with the basics: the citizen and his proper behavior as a political agent and instrument of gay self-determination.When we have a critical number of individuals behaving as citizens,then perhaps - I say perhaps - we can start discussing about functions,titles and forms of organization.The present situation suits me: a central discussion place in the present forum,along with local individuals or small circles who could act
on site and in real life,and report in the discussion place.The method of trial and error,all the more usefull that it will apply in real and different
local conditions.An example of action on site which I once reported here is my withdrawal from participation in local canadian elections back in 1979.What steps gays from other parts of the world have taken on site and in their respective places in connection with local hethro elections is one practical subject among hundreds or thousands which could be discussed in this forum.

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Mogul

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Re: Gay Realpolitiks
« Reply #60 on: Tue, May 30, 2006, 08:35 »

[..] I`d tend to prefer the individual who does something specific to the one who bestows upon himself some formal title like President of this or that gay microrepublic.A certain number of formal actions,like an outright secession or the setting up of a government for example,could besides have no effectivity in the real world.

Certainly, the form of organization must be adequate to the nature of its actions and purposes. I entirely agree with you that solely the extent of real competency determines between the dignity and the ridicule. Should someone occupy a tiny islet and populate it with 100 gays, that noble person has every good reason to call himself/herself if not an "Emperor", but at least a "Chieftain". Alike, the chief of an urban gay clan might titulate himself "Padre" or whatever. In an international organization serving as a souvereign gay entity, one can have lots of ordinary-sounding titles like "Secretary", "Commisioneer" or "Consul Honoraire" - depending on the actual job the person makes. 

I wonder wether I am really among the first.The nation State is a widespread concept,which has been developping among hethro organized societies since the 17th century.It is so dominant,obvious and simple that the idea of a gay independent State could have come up to the mind of any gay who has lived in the late few centuries.Perhaps it did,only that we didn`t heard about it. [..]

Certainly, many reports and ideas have been lost, and even those which were preserved are not necessarily known to us - by times I must learn good lessons proving my factual ignorance.  ;D Eventhough, from what we know, the first efforts to achieve a gay majority on a regional level go back into 1970th, when there was a plan to "overtake" a single county in the US.

Ironically, the first ideologists of "gay statism" were probably not gays but heterosexuals - yes, yes, believe it or not. In 1869, a straight man with the name GEIGEL suggested*) to K. H. Ulrichs:

"And here we leave you, Mr Ulrichs! Get vanished! Make us a favour and go, with your 25.000 Uranians, buy some [territory] on the North Pole, but please save our german soil from your presence!"

If this doesn't sound like a suggestion to create an own territorial state for Uranians?  >:) Unfortunately, Mr Ulrichs was not able to create even such a little thing as an Uranian association - like he had planned. The reason was simple: from those "25.000 Uranians" (in truth, millions), may be a dozen would join, whereas the others were not at all interested in taking any action (Ulrichs died in great poverty in Italia, which has been for long the place of refuge for many homosexual men those days). 

*) [Geigel]: "Das Paradoxon der Venus Urania", p. 34. Quoted from Hubert Kennedy: "Karl Heinrich Ulrichs".
« Last Edit: Tue, May 30, 2006, 08:38 by Mogul »
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin

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Re: Gay Realpolitiks
« Reply #59 on: Tue, May 30, 2006, 07:15 »

You belong to the first generation of gay nationalists

I wonder wether I am really among the first.The nation State is a widespread concept,which has been developping among hethro organized societies since the 17th century.It is so dominant,obvious and simple that the idea of a gay independent State could have come up to the mind of any gay who has lived in the late few centuries.Perhaps it did,only that we didn`t heard about it.Hadn`t it been for the internet,it is unlikely that we would have ever heard of each other.The same way I have known from the beginning that I was not the only individual in the world to be gay,I suspect that I am not either the first to have been a separatist in the geopolitical sense.In that respect,I see myself as a continuation of something which has existed in the past,as well as a part of something which will outlive me in the future.

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Re: Gay Realpolitiks
« Reply #58 on: Tue, May 30, 2006, 06:54 »

Here I agree with you - three generations sound not that much for me. You belong to the first generation of gay nationalists, my humble self to the second, and the third generation consists of the schoolboys of our days. So, what are we - our 3 generations - going to do?


I don`t think that either you or my humble self will ever see a gay independent State.But the leaders of some large gay independence movement well on the way to that aim are most probably among the younger readers of this forum.Some gay Prince of the future,to use a machiavelian expression,is perhaps among us now.Our role is to act as his advisers.

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Re: Gay Realpolitiks
« Reply #57 on: Tue, May 30, 2006, 06:43 »

How can you seriously propagate establishment of a gay state, and deny the necessity of pre-state gay organizations?

I think that we must have first and in proper order some aspects of the behavior of political agents of a State before having the formal trappings
of Statehood.Such formal trappings not based upon prior accomplished facts would amount to empty posturing.We could besides have an interest,
as long as no gay State is established,to deny that such a State even exists.Not that I like the comparison,but a bit like the mob,which acts but denies existing.

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Re: Gay Realpolitiks
« Reply #56 on: Tue, May 30, 2006, 06:34 »

Beg your pardon, but without institutions and people who actually do something, gay nationalism will remain a chimere, living solely in minds of some individuals, and find no expressions in the real world.

A specific and local gay separatist group could perfectly have formal institutional and hierarchic structures,and yet be composed of individuals actually doing nothing in real life which would bear any ressemblance with political independence.For instance,it could have or effectively implement no definition of who is gay,in which case political secession hasn`t even started yet.In that respect,I`d tend to prefer the individual who does something specific to the one who bestows upon himself some formal title like President of this or that gay microrepublic.A certain number of
formal actions,like an outright secession or the setting up of a government for example,could besides have no effectivity in the real world.

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Mogul

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Re: Gay Realpolitiks
« Reply #55 on: Tue, May 30, 2006, 03:58 »

That is a basic political error,especially in a confucian culture which ought to revere established and successfull political authority.Upon its inception,a gay independence movement ought to be rather like a cloud,offering no institutions and no chiefs which could be seized and thus rendered inoffensive.

Beg your pardon, but without institutions and people who actually do something, gay nationalism will remain a chimere, living solely in minds of some individuals, and find no expressions in the real world. Real gay kids get relly beaten up in schools, real gay people loose their real jobs and real gay people are executed by well-organnized real heterosexuals. With gay nationalism solely in our minds, we will achieve nothing. Certainly, we must take care that in case if all our central structures collapse, we still have functioning sub-structures to keep the movement going, but this fear is a rather bad justification to dispense with central structures ab initio. This being said, the "movement" as such always consists from many various groups and individuals, but they would do well to coordinate their efforts - this is the role of an organization and, finally, of the state. How can you seriously propagate establishment of a gay state, and deny the necessity of pre-state gay organizations?

The moment it comes to the mind of certain gays,or that it is noticed as a current of opinion on the internet,gay separatism could spread
very quickly and internationally,and become a political fashion among us gays.In the age of the internet,that is possible.Then,many gay separatist groups will appear,most of which will not remain for very long in existence or which will fail.Political independence is a rather long process which requires time and patience beyond what most people can imagine.It could take two or three generations of gays to elaborate a comprehensive blueprint for political independence,in tune with the realities of this world,and with a chance of success.We will have to be very persistent and singleminded with the idea of political independence if we are to make it a reality one day.

Here I agree with you - three generations sound not that much for me. You belong to the first generation of gay nationalists, my humble self to the second, and the third generation consists of the schoolboys of our days. So, what are we - our 3 generations - going to do?
 :=SU
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin

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Re: Gay Realpolitiks
« Reply #54 on: Thu, May 25, 2006, 09:49 »

We wolld not be able to declare a de jura "independence" of the area  but we would be able to achieve most of our practical goals de facto: create a safe place for all refugees, establish a gay-majority settlement and develope administrative structures to further our cultural and political developement. If we think of Tibetian people in India, we see that a friendly foreign government can offer some area to a government in exile and its people, wich is certainly better than having no self-determination at all. Should than some opportunity turn out somewhere in the world to take over responsibility over a territory somewhere else during an "interregnum", we would have the ressources for doing so.

The establishment of the Montreal gay district in the early and mid 80s is something I saw with my own eyes.To the best of my knowledge,it was not the result of any gay plan or scheme.It would rather have had to do with the hethro municipal authorities,which were rumoured to have caused difficulties to the former Montreal gay settlement composed essentially of gay bars and located further west on Stanley street.Gays simply openned a few other bars in what now is the Montreal gay district.But this time,gays also started to rent and buy places and settle.In the beginning,there were only a few gay residents (some of them friends of mine) in what constituted a gutted hethro district.But gradually,it became obvious that there were somewhat more gays there than elsewhere on Montreal island.Towards the early 90s,the place obviously had a gay majority.Money,I must admit,seemed to have a role in this.The former residents of the now Montreal gay district were poor,often unemployed heterosexuals.They were no match for gay newcomers who,though not necessarily wealthy and though even perhaps as poor as
the heterosexuals,had nevertheless extra cash which was not available to single parent families.With extra money,but also with extra spare time flowing from its lifestyle,the gay element was more dynamic than the hethro one.That is how it populated the place,buying or renting being in that respect actions among others.Gays also renovated the district,which they could afford.

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