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Author Topic: Gay Realpolitiks  (Read 17261 times)

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Mogul

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Re: Gay Realpolitiks
« Reply #53 on: Wed, May 24, 2006, 17:10 »

Wealthy gays could get the idea that this future country of ours could be bought,which is too close from that other idea of eventually selling it.

I pay tribute to your rhetoric skills :!! but do not agree with your argumentation entirely. Whereas one cannot buy a country, one can buy territory - various examples of huge private posessions, military bases and industrial areas illustrate this. Of course, it is quite unlikely that any foreign government would officially "sale" some territory for the purpose of establishing a gay state on it, but it is not especially unlikely to reach a kind of contract for the territory, giving the owners large freedoms about the area. One of such guaranteed rights would be, for example, the right to freely enter and leave the area for all employees and visitors of the owner, as well as the right to perform business and establish settlements for various purposes. A certain degree of own legal system can also be negotiated - all this things are possible even while preserving the formal jurisdiction of the host country. We wolld not be able to declare a de jura "independence" of the area but we would be able to achieve most of our practical goals de facto: create a safe place for all refugees, establish a gay-majority settlement and develope administrative structures to further our cultural and political developement. If we think of Tibetian people in India, we see that a friendly foreign government can offer some area to a government in exile and its people, wich is certainly better than having no self-determination at all. Should than some opportunity turn out somewhere in the world to take over responsibility over a territory somewhere else during an "interregnum", we would have the ressources for doing so.
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin

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Re: Gay Realpolitiks
« Reply #52 on: Wed, May 24, 2006, 00:11 »

On the other hand, in peacefull times - and such will be ours hopefully - the wealthy businessmen are very active in politics, because they have, of course, a strong interest to preserve their investments. We should, however, take an example on the Jewish people - they have learned from the past and stick together beyound any material interests. 

The great concerto of gay political independence will be played on and with a variety of instruments.Gay money might participate,but only
as an instrument among others and like any other.Wealthy gays could get the idea that this future country of ours could be bought,which is
too close from that other idea of eventually selling it.I hear all too often that type of suggestion in micronational forums that a country could be bought with money.A country is earned with sweath,tears and blood.

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Mogul

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Re: Gay Realpolitiks
« Reply #51 on: Tue, May 23, 2006, 05:41 »

It is not that I exclude gay money from the equation of a geopolitical secession.Gay money will be difficult to mobilize for specific reasons,the same way it will have specific reasons to jump ship or get seasick when a gay State will sail on rough waters.Poor gays won`t have the opportuny to flee abroad and there live off their swiss bank accounts if a country of ours is invaded and temporarily occupied by some hethro power.The poor would like to flee no less than the rich,except that they do not have that opportunity and will have to stay and bear the brunt of the struggle and material and human losses incured to regain independence.

K6

You make an interesting point. Indeed, looking abroad to the wide world gives us many examples of wealthy individuals fleeing their homelands in the times of crisis - e.g. many Russian oligarchs have left Russia in last years and have taken their money with them, having a comfortable life in Switzerland or in Greate Britain now, far away from the problems of the poors. On the other hand, in peacefull times - and such will be ours hopefully - the wealthy businessmen are very active in politics, because they have, of course, a strong interest to preserve their investments. We should, however, take an example on the Jewish people - they have learned from the past and stick together beyound any material interests. 
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin

Mogul

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Re: Gay Realpolitiks
« Reply #50 on: Fri, May 05, 2006, 20:45 »

[..] It would be a greate help if some lesbians would let us know, whether they are fine with the integrative use of "gay" or whether they feel discriminated against by this. [..]

To touch an older topic of ours, namely the search for one word describing homosexual men and women: In a (rather unimportant) report from UK one girl is talking about her being gay - obviously, some lesbian women are not unfriendly to this integrative use of the word.

"[..] Laura [..] says staff and regulars alike know she is gay. [..] 'Everyone knows I'm gay and I've taken my last two girlfriends to the Grapes without any problems, so this has come as a real shock,' said Laura. [..] 'I'm sure they would not have made a fuss if it was a man and a women, this is because we are gay.' "
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin

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Re: Gay Realpolitiks
« Reply #49 on: Tue, May 02, 2006, 09:42 »


Whereas it is generally a good thing to entertain good relationships with as many countries as possible, some countries will leave us no choice as to be treated as hostile. More precisely, we shall speak of hostile governments keeping in mind, that 7-10 % of inhabitants are gays or lesbians. This brings us into the difficult situation that in case of open conflict we have a considerable amount of our people kept as hostages by the enemy.

That goes double.With gay ears and eyes in every hethro society on earth,we could introduce a factor of insecurity in the lives of homophobic hethro politicians.By way of gossiping in our own yellow press for example: "This or that politician dined last night in this or that restaurant of,say,
Paris,France.He ate this or that,and drank champagne of this or that vintage.Cheating on his wife,he was in the company of this or that prostitute
with this or that specific VD,which he is likely to have caught in the ensuing night spent in suite number such of this or that Hotel".

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Re: Gay Realpolitiks
« Reply #48 on: Tue, May 02, 2006, 08:41 »


We must, of course, discuss the prerequisits for obtaining the citizenship and the consequences for the citizen of any given state of residency. In some countries, dual citizenship is allowed, in other countries (e.g. in Germany) the "old" citizenship is lost by attaining "new" citizenship. For such countries, we will have to find creative solutions, which would allow gay individual to participate in the political life of the gay state, without facing unnecessary practical difficulties in the country of his residency.

Gays having freely chosen to remain in their own (sic) hethro countries would not participate in the life of a gay State in a formal political manner.
Their role would rather consist,where allowed to,to send economic assistance or contributions to that gay State,as well as observations on the
situation abroad.Given the fact that we are a minority,we won`t have most of the time the option of force in dealing with such foreign organized
societies like hethro States.We will therefore have to outwit them by being far better informed on the world situation than they are themselves.
I mean here not only the government staff of the gay State,but its population as well.We must have a generally well read citizenry,along with people specializing in the study of particular areas of the world,or particular foreign issues (gay or non-gay).In a way,we already have this advantage,as we know the organized hethro societies in which we live far better than they know us.The role of gays having chosen to remain
abroad shall therefore consist to study foreign hethro societies thoroughly,and to pass on their observations to both the government staff and the citizenry of a gay State.

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Re: Gay Realpolitiks
« Reply #47 on: Tue, May 02, 2006, 00:10 »

My suggestion is to introduce, along with full citizenship, the category "affiliate" of the Gay State a kind of second-class citizenship, guaranteeing some basic rights and connected to vew obligations. Though one might feel uncomfortable contemplating the status of "second-class citizenship", this solution would be certainly better than obtaining no citizenship at all.

There should be no second class citizenship for gays.Either gays choose to emigrate to that Republic of ours.In which case,they become citizens upon arrival in the said Republic,or at the soonest on the premises of the local embassy or consulate abroad where they apply to emigrate.Or gays
choose to remain abroad,in which case they renounce to become citizens of a gay Republic.I do not include in the lot those gays who remain abroad against their will.Gays who choose to remain abroad are to be considered as citizens of their own (sic) hethro countries.The treatment they receive in those countries where,again,they chose to remain and whence they are not prevented from leaving,is a strictly internal matter of those countries.

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Re: Gay Realpolitiks
« Reply #46 on: Mon, May 01, 2006, 18:27 »

I see absolutely no reason why gays permanently residing in other countries shall be deprived of the opportunity to attain the citizenship of the Gay State. On contrary, regarding our natural abundance in the world, we might very well face the cituation when most of our citizens are liveng abroad. This will be, in particular, the case if the Gay State will posess no territory, or the territory under its control will be to small to accomodate any significant population. The state shall unite as many gays as possible under its governance, both to increase its political and economical weight, and "to bring together what naturally belongs together". In no way can I agree to the notion that gays in Diaspora shall be deprived of the beneficence and protection of the Gay State.

Granting the citizenship of a gay Republic to gays residing abroad would prove futile,as we would have no means to enforce it.It would lead us into complications with foreign and friendly hethro governments,who would not accept such a statement of intent from our part upon a significant section of the populations under their jurisdiction.An aggreement with friendly hethro governments would probably allow us to grant the citizenship of a gay Republic to individuals having applied for it in a gay embassy or consulate,and in the process of emigrating to such a Republic of ours.Or better,in transit from some homophobic country.

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Mogul

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Re: Gay Realpolitiks
« Reply #45 on: Mon, May 01, 2006, 16:54 »

We will have to be cautious,so as no to interfere in the domestic affairs of other States,at least those which are friendly or not hostile to us.Not even over the matter of their treatment of the local gay minority. [...] they would go down fighting in a way,either sending us information,or causing the vertical emigration of some mullah here and there. [..]

My personal belief is that such a thing like "foreign domestic affairs" does not exist at all, whenever the interests of a state are concerned. The only issue to be discussed is the form in which one state intrudes into "domestic affairs" of another state. If our people are suffering oppression or are endangered, we must take actions suitable to help them. Wherever our nationals express concerns about their situation, the global "gay government" shall address the problem. It would be wise, of course, to do this in a way with regard to particular situation in that countries: a gay-friendly foreign government can be contacted on diplomatic channels without any unnecessary discomposure, whereas some hostile fundamentalists can be moved out of our way by less diplomatic means. If president of one country gives unsolicited advices to the government of the neighbouring state, it is clearly an offensive action and will entail serious tensions. If special funds of the same president generously support a number of dissident NGO's in the neighbouring country, this is simply "humanitary aid" and hardly can cause a public scandal.

[..] It is out of question that we confer the citizenship of a Republic of ours to permanent residents of foreign hethro countries,even if they are gays. [..]

Why so? I see absolutely no reason why gays permanently residing in other countries shall be deprived of the opportunity to attain the citizenship of the Gay State. On contrary, regarding our natural abundance in the world, we might very well face the cituation when most of our citizens are liveng abroad. This will be, in particular, the case if the Gay State will posess no territory, or the territory under its control will be to small to accomodate any significant population. The state shall unite as many gays as possible under its governance, both to increase its political and economical weight, and "to bring together what naturally belongs together". In no way can I agree to the notion that gays in Diaspora shall be deprived of the beneficence and protection of the Gay State.

In one point you have right, of course – it is out of question that the Gay State might entertain governmental sub-divisions on a foreign souvereign territory. Gay communities "abroad" will have to be self-ruled in compliance with local legislations, and will be, as organizations, no subjects of the Gay State. These communities will, however, entertain close relationship to the Gay State, and members of these communities very well may participate in political life of the Gay State through representatives etc. In some countries it shall be possible to re-claim some part of taxes by a contract with the local governments.

We must, of course, discuss the prerequisits for obtaining the citizenship – and the consequences for the citizen of any given state of residency. In some countries, dual citizenship is allowed, in other countries (e.g. in Germany) the "old" citizenship is lost by attaining "new" citizenship. For such countries, we will have to find creative solutions, which would allow gay individual to participate in the political life of the gay state, without facing unnecessary practical difficulties in the country of his residency. Certainly, we will need also a couple or two heroes, but the vaste majority of the gay population shall not be forced into artificial difficulties. My suggestion is to introduce, along with full citizenship, the category "affiliate" of the Gay State – a kind of second-class citizenship, guaranteeing some basic rights and connected to vew obligations. Though one might feel uncomfortable contemplating the status of "second-class citizenship", this solution would be certainly better than obtaining no citizenship at all.

Furthermore, the competencies of local authorities of the Gay State, and the "Global Gay Government" must be clearly separated. There is no reason why citizens living abroad shall have the right to interfere with internal politics on the territory of the Gay State, or why the local authorities shall have the unrestricted right to speak for the entire gay population of the planet. The actual legal framework is negotiable and is subject of much more elaborated discussion that is possible in this thread (basically, we could either introduce 2 institutions, or guarantee certain amount of seats within the parliament for representatives from Diaspora).

[..] we will need [..] diplomatic relations in order to be able to conduct normal political business beyond the limits of our country.As for myself,I`d prefer gay immigration by regular methods,that is applicants in a gay embassy or consulate abroad [..]

Certainly – the consulate is very suitable not only for processing immigrants, but for maintaining good relations both with the local Diaspora and with the host country. The political, economical and cultural interests of the Gay State would be best served in a civilized procedure. Though, ther will be an amount of countries, where gays will have to go abroad under wrong premises (here I remember my own elopement from the collapsing Soviet Union – knowing that my documents were processed, I went on travel with tourist visum).

[..] Another matter to be discussed will be the classification of hethro countries in good,bad or indifferent,or in whatever other category we may see fit.We have to do this before we define the ways and means of our own international political line. [..]

Whereas it is generally a good thing to entertain good relationships with as many countries as possible, some countries will leave us no choice as to be treated as hostile. More precisely, we shall speak of hostile governments – keeping in mind, that 7-10 % of inhabitants are gays or lesbians. This brings us into the difficult situation that in case of open conflict we have a considerable amount of our people kept as hostages by the enemy. Therefore the gay government will have to consider very carefully its words and actions – sometimes it is required to act undercover, whereby the actions themeselves can be very well of unfriendly nature. If some governments practically declare war on gays, these governments and governmental property shall be targeted with no restrictions – but the populations of those countries be spared from any collateral damage.

[..] those gays of the future [..] might not have to decide to become or not to become a member of the UN,for the obvious simple reason the UN will have left the stage of world politics and history as its ancestor the League of Nations did in 1939. [..]

It is in vane to discuss global issues of tomorrow – every generation of politicians must deal with geopolitical situation of their times. It might come as you say, but it also might come different – in any case, the existence of the state must be preserved, and the interests of the gay people as whole be served in the best way possible. The interests of the future generations of gays must be taken into account as well.
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin

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Re: "Queer Nation" Manifest from 1991
« Reply #44 on: Mon, May 01, 2006, 11:52 »

But the question must be allowed, whether our interests weren't best seved as a full-status member state of the UN, shall we once establish a state.

That option might no longer exist for those gays of the future - I salute them - who will establish a gay independent State.They might not have to decide to become or not to become a member of the UN,for the obvious simple reason the UN will have left the stage of world politics and history as its ancestor the League of Nations did in 1939.The remaining option,if the world has become multipolar,will be to join a local or ideological association of States.A gay Republic would probably have an interest in joining an association of *secular States*.

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Re: "Queer Nation" Manifest from 1991
« Reply #43 on: Sun, Apr 30, 2006, 14:27 »

Our weakness comes from our disorganization - no hetero can be blaimed for that mishap of ours. Organized communities are the place where our people could reach many of our political and cultural goals even before the gay state is actually established.

That is correct,including the blame against ourselves for not being organized.In liberal hethro countries,we have no excuse not to be organized.
Even before a gay independent State is established,we will be faced with tasks similar to the ones of a State.We had already an example of this right in this forum and with the debate over the definition of who is gay.General and effective action on this is possible on the basis of a common and informal aggreement between gay separatists,similar to those nation-States reach between themselves by way of exchange of notes.There is an aggreement between us that all Kinsey 6 gays are gays.There is none and the discussion is to be continued concerning the other levels of the Kinsey scale.Another matter to be discussed will be the classification of hethro countries in good,bad or indifferent,or in whatever other category we may see fit.We have to do this before we define the ways and means of our own international political line.It is obvious that with certain social-democrat countries,which have been relatively fair to us,we will have to advise gays to remain loyal to them.
Whereas in the case of certain other countries,it will not decently be possible for us to do so.

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Re: "Queer Nation" Manifest from 1991
« Reply #42 on: Sun, Apr 30, 2006, 11:58 »

Certainly, a country must follow primarily it's own interests - and not comply with the interests of other countries, however powerfull they might be. But the question must be allowed, whether our interests weren't best seved as a full-status member state of the UN, shall we once establish a state. Neither the membership in the UN is necessary for an indipendent state, nor is a recognition by other states - but both the recognition and UN membership would be extremely helpful for the work of our government. Both vessels and citizens of an unrecognized state are permanently in danger of being seized and controlled by the personell of foreign states - a very unconfortable situation. Recognition by the most other states would abolish the necessety to heavily arm every merchant ship of ours, and generelly make the life easier both for citizens and for gays in Diaspora.

As I said,we will need a certain number of gay friendly countries as areas of transit to ours,alongside with aggreements over airline traffic between us and them.And diplomatic relations in order to be able to conduct normal political business beyond the limits of our country.As for myself,I`d prefer gay immigration by regular methods,that is applicants in a gay embassy or consulate abroad,rather than fugitives jumping the border fence between us and the hethro world in the mist and fog of early morning.

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Re: "Queer Nation" Manifest from 1991
« Reply #41 on: Sun, Apr 30, 2006, 11:46 »

When the gay state will be established, local communities in "overseas" will be as well an important part of our politics - probably, the most important part of our politics.

We will have to be cautious,so as no to interfere in the domestic affairs of other States,at least those which are friendly or not hostile to us.Not
even over the matter of their treatment of the local gay minority.For those States will be necessary to us as areas of transit for gays fleeing hostile hethro countries.It is out of question that we confer the citizenship of a Republic of ours to permanent residents of foreign hethro countries,even if they are gays.As for those gays living under hostile hethro regimes,our policy will be to get them out by any mean found in an history book.It is quite possible that regimes similar to the one of Iran will not even let their gay citizens leave,on top of persecuting them.At that stage,I`d wonder if it wouldn`t be as good for those gays to be arrested and executed as operatives of our intelligence agencies,rather than only for gay sex.That would make at the same time more glorious and usefull,and they would go down fighting in a way,either sending us information,or causing the vertical emigration of some mullah here and there.As in the TV series of the 60s titled "Mission Impossible",we would deny having had any knowledge of their activities.Gay eyes and ears in foreign and hostile hethro countries should not be left without a place and certain tasks on which I`d prefer not to elaborate any further in the context of our foreign affairs.

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Mogul

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Re: "Queer Nation" Manifest from 1991
« Reply #40 on: Sun, Apr 30, 2006, 09:15 »

[..] Gays,at least,will have to cooperate internationally and closely as heterosexuals never did if a gay independent State is ever to be set up.Political indepence for us gays will not be achieved by some local gay community. [..]

Certainly, our political independence will be not directly achieved by local gay communities - but we shall not forget what are the goals and what are the means. To say it more explicitely: gay political independence is not a superior goal for gay politics, but the means to enable our people a worthy existence - not more and not less. Our political indipendence will be only a part of the entire gay reality - with most gays living outside of the indipendent gay state. Certainly, the gay state will not only restrict its competencies solely over its residents, but will be closely involved into politics of all the other countries, where gays are residing. In my view, well-organized and well-networked local gay communities will not only essentially improve the cultural and political live of gays, but also will form the best preliminary structures for gay cultural and political indipendence.

And let me explain why: it's because in communities we live our social life - meet other people, make sports, work etc. In communities we experience our living together as a people, indeed, the people is the next stage in the evolution of communities! Our weakness comes from our disorganization - no hetero can be blaimed for that mishap of ours. Organized communities are the place where our people could reach many of our political and cultural goals even before the gay state is actually established.

When the gay state will be established, local communities in "overseas" will be as well an important part of our politics - probably, the most important part of our politics.

[..] We need no UN except as a circle of philosophers with no decisional authority and no power to enforce their ideals.Besides,and by the time we get near statehood,the UN will probably no longer exist.Actually,the UN could become irrelevant with the ongoing international crisis over the status of Iran as a nuclear power. [..]

Certainly, a country must follow primarily it's own interests - and not comply with the interests of other countries, however powerfull they might be. But the question must be allowed, whether our interests weren't best seved as a full-status member state of the UN, shall we once establish a state. Neither the membership in the UN is necessary for an indipendent state, nor is a recognition by other states - but both the recognition and UN membership would be extremely helpful for the work of our government. Both vessels and citizens of an unrecognized state are permanently in danger of being seized and controlled by the personell of foreign states - a very unconfortable situation. Recognition by the most other states would abolish the necessety to heavily arm every merchant ship of ours, and generelly make the life easier both for citizens and for gays in Diaspora.
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin

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Re: "Queer Nation" Manifest from 1991
« Reply #39 on: Sat, Apr 29, 2006, 16:47 »

The nationalist's world view is based on the assumption, that a people can best develope (both culturally and economically) in a nation-state on its own. Naturally, any ambitions from other movements/entities to abolish the nation-state are contrary to the ideology of nationalism. Unlike it is commonly believed, any international cooperation and supranational structures do not contradict the idea of a nation-state - on contrary, the nation-state is the basis of all such activities!

Our difference lies with the method,not really with the essence of international cooperation.Gays,at least,will have to cooperate internationally and closely as heterosexuals never did if a gay independent State is ever to be set up.Political indepence for us gays will not be achieved by some local gay community.I am entirely satisfied with the operation of the balance of power as a method for dealing on an international plane.We need no UN except as a circle of philosophers with no decisional authority and no power to enforce their ideals.Besides,and by the time we get near statehood,the UN will probably no longer exist.Actually,the UN could become irrelevant with the ongoing international crisis over the status of
Iran as a nuclear power.

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