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Mogul

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Re: Religion
« Reply #20 on: Mon, May 15, 2006, 21:28 »

There is an sympthomatic article on 365gay.com:

"Catholic Church Hit With New LGBT Scandals
by Peter Moore, 365Gay.com London Bureau

May 15, 2006

(London) The Roman Catholic Church was in the midst of damage control on Sunday following the firing of a key aide to the Cardinal in London for being gay and the reported arrest of a top Vatican official in Rome for trying to pick up a gay or transsexual prostitute.

Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor, the leader of the Roman Catholic Church in England and Wales has reportedly fired his top aide after discovering the man is gay. 

The Mail reports that Stephen Noon's sexuality was discovered when his long-term partner visited him at his office.

"His partner came to the office at the end of the day and was introduced to the Cardinal," a friend of the couple tells The Mail.

"Shortly afterwards the Church made it clear that his sexuality was incompatible with the job he had to do. Since he was the spokesperson for the Cardinal, Murphy-O'Connor clearly felt he had to act because homosexual acts are regarded by the Church as a sin," the friend was quoted as saying.

Noon, 35, joined the Archbishop's staff in 2003. He was previously a press officer for the Scottish Nationalist Party, was handed the brief to improve the Catholic Church's image. The Church was paying him about $70,000 a year.

The cardinal was a leading opponent of Britain's civil partnership law, had opposed to the repeal of Clause 28 - which banned the promotion of homosexuality in schools - and fought against legislation that gave gays and lesbians job and housing protections.

Meanwhile, in Rome, the Vatican is vehemently denying published reports that a senior Church official had been arrested while looking for a male or a transsexual prostitute in an area of the city know for its hustlers.

The Ansa news agency and Italian newspapers report that the 48-year-old priest - whose rank was withheld and who was identified only by the initials CB - works in the office of the secretary of state of the Vatican.

"Information disseminated this morning by newspapers concerning a cleric in service at the Vatican are totally without foundation," a Vatican statement said.

The media outlets are standing by their stories.

©365Gay.com 2006"


"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin

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Re: Religion
« Reply #19 on: Sun, May 14, 2006, 17:24 »


A statesman has responsibility for his entire people, not just for those who are smart, healthy and prosperous. He has responsibility for the full spectrum of his folks - even for the weaklings and the criminals, and he shall aim to turn them into usefull members of society. Therefore I would rather agree into your "boot camp" efforts for such "weaklings", than let them run into self-destruction. A carefull psychological treatment is another possibility, and effective one. However, any success of such re-vitalization programms would depend on persuasiveness of friends of such fellows - the state can only pay the bills.


A statesman of a gay Republic of the future,based on immigration,will not decide of the composition of that immigration.He will have to fend off
with the available and effective migrants,not with theoretical ones.As much as he would want out of lachrymo-humanitarian sentiment save the gay weaklings living under foreign hethro rule,he won`t get them.Because the said weaklings will be too coward to migrate to a gay State.Such a State will draw individuals whose parting with the hethro regime will be clearcut and uncompromising.So that in all likelyhood,there won`t be any necessity to distract government funding and ressources to reeducate weaklings who will anyway not show up.Rather,a gay State might have to reward those gays who first will have stood up to the hethro regime in their countries of origin,and then undertook the sometimes dangerous journey to a gay State.These will have in certain cases to be decorated for their deeds,right on the tarmac of the airport and upon their arrival on sovereign gay soil.

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Re: Religion
« Reply #18 on: Sun, May 14, 2006, 17:00 »


Instead, we are increasingly confronted with gay leaders swaggering about the Catholic Church for regulations excluding gay priests - what the hell did the guys expect? Why shall we wish to be "included" into this homophobic criminal organization?


Current gay leaders want us to be part of the hethro empire,at a price which I find a little bit too high.They are focussed on the idea of apology for our existence rather than of promotion of that existence itself,and of political independence which should logically follow up.They are too apolitical,and too focussed on the individual and of his accomodation with the foreign hethro regime.They neglect collective interests in the process,and collective interests will eventally catch up with them.They will encounter a competition for which they will be no match,if ever a gay independentist movement appears,develops and gains momentum.

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Re: Religion
« Reply #17 on: Sun, May 14, 2006, 15:19 »

Ah, but a rope is far stronger than any of its strands.

One cannot see all the strands of a rope,which could be rotten beneat the surface and about to snap.Whereas all the links of a chain are visible.

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Feral

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Re: Religion
« Reply #16 on: Sun, May 14, 2006, 14:20 »

A chain is never stronger than its weakest link.

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Ah, but a rope is far stronger than any of its strands.
Stonewall was a riot.

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Re: Religion
« Reply #15 on: Sun, May 14, 2006, 11:20 »

Outside of gay souvereignity, executing justice shall be limited to cases of extraordinary crimes against the gay people, but then be accomplished consecuently.

As a State organization,we will have the proper agencies for such accomplishments.Plus the operatives,to be eventually found among gays living
abroad and in every other country on earth,even if only as informants.This will be a relatively advantageous situation,but not to be spoiled by exceeding our means or our ressources.We will remain a minority even if we get a State of our own.Most often,we won`t have the option of force against individuals in foreign countries.As a minority,we will deal with organized hethro societies mainly by way of diplomacy or by cunning.Force and violence,though they exist and are commonplace in the international political environment,are not really its main features in everyday life.Most of the time,nations try either to secude or to fool each other.I would recommend on this subject the reading of Machiavelli`s "The Prince".What could be comtemplated could be a few isolated actions,spectacular by their spirit of recollection,retribution and cruelty.Like waiting 30 or 40 years untill some fundamentalist religious and political leader and hanging judge of the type found for example in Iran has reached old age and retirement and confinement in some clinic or senior`s home.Then one day,a new nurse appointed to his service takes him for a ride in wheelchair,heading towards the nearest staircase.This is entirely hypothetical of course,since a key element of the operation is missing: a refuge for the operative and in the form of a gay State,once he has accomplished his mission.

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Re: Religion
« Reply #14 on: Sun, May 14, 2006, 04:50 »

A statesman has responsibility for his entire people, not just for those who are smart, healthy and prosperous. He has responsibility for the full spectrum of his folks - even for the weaklings and the criminals, and he shall aim to turn them into usefull members of society.

A chain is never stronger than its weakest link.

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Re: Religion
« Reply #13 on: Sun, May 14, 2006, 04:37 »

Dear me, your cynism is atrocious! 8(( Instead of providing these unfortunate fellows with some additional portions of pounding, we should look for means to help them out of their pityfull set of mind. Sure, there are some hypocrits among homosexuals, who willingly participate in activities against gay people. But we are talking here about the others - about those unhappy souls who had the misfortune to get born into religious fundamentalist families/societies and were forced into inner homophobia - indeed into a self-hatred. Like Pawlow's dogs, they are helplessly delivered to their reflexes, imposed upon them by years of daily conditioning. How can you seriously blame them for what has been done to their souls in the early childhood, and suggest to deliver  them francly into their fate?

I have observed such characters in the liberal and relatively tolerant hethro society in which I live.A secular society which imposes religion upon no one.It`s the gay weaklings who themselves sought comfort in religion and dwelt in it,whereas most people - gay or non-gay - were not fooled by
the fraud religion entails.Besides,and when I entered myself the primary school in the late 50s,the society in which I lived was still at that time dominated by the catholic church.Its propaganda had almost no effect upon me,since I was not interested in metaphysics.Other gays who had religious or moral scrupules about satisfying their earthly desires and interests the gay way never prevented me from satisfying mine.I will not restrict my freedom to roam because of their limitations.

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Mogul

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Re: Religion
« Reply #12 on: Sun, May 14, 2006, 03:19 »

Those gays will have to choose. [..] It is possible then that thus caught between two incompatible source of authority and sets of values,and incapable of choosing,gay believers and weaklings will simply collapse morally and psycologically.They will then take themselves the last and most logical and consequent action of their lives.After which,we shall live happily in political independence and freedom without them. [..]

[..] My reaction to such weaklings is not compassion,but figuring how to exploit their weakness so that it could be usefull to us instead of harmfull.If bullying them is the method which sets them in motion,let`s bully them.Let us be the fatherly and authority figures whom they do not dare challenging.

Dear me, your cynism is atrocious! 8(( Instead of providing these unfortunate fellows with some additional portions of pounding, we should look for means to help them out of their pityfull set of mind. Sure, there are some hypocrits among homosexuals, who willingly participate in activities against gay people. But we are talking here about the others - about those unhappy souls who had the misfortune to get born into religious fundamentalist families/societies and were forced into inner homophobia - indeed into a self-hatred. Like Pawlow's dogs, they are helplessly delivered to their reflexes, imposed upon them by years of daily conditioning. How can you seriously blame them for what has been done to their souls in the early childhood, and suggest to deliver  them francly into their fate?

No, here I agree with Michael Denneny's (Proposition 4) completely:

"Many straights—and unfortunately even some gays—have the irritating habit of pointing to one of the more bizarre, extreme, confused, or self-lacerating (but rarely seifdestructive) manifestations of homosexuality as the reason for their general repugnance and intolerance. But they have it ass-backward. These evasions of self, confusions of sex, and manifestations of despair are the result of the implacable hostility of society—”the havoc wrought in the souls of people who aren’t supposed to exist” (Ntozake Shange). There is a savage hypocrisy here that reminds one of Bieber’s assertion that homosexuals were neurotic because they were, among other things, “injustice collectors.”"

A statesman has responsibility for his entire people, not just for those who are smart, healthy and prosperous. He has responsibility for the full spectrum of his folks - even for the weaklings and the criminals, and he shall aim to turn them into usefull members of society. Therefore I would rather agree into your "boot camp" efforts for such "weaklings", than let them run into self-destruction. A carefull psychological treatment is another possibility, and effective one. However, any success of such re-vitalization programms would depend on persuasiveness of friends of such fellows - the state can only pay the bills.

Within our own sovereign borders, we can only try to persuade people of the truth and criminalize slanders against the gay people (such as our sexuality is bad in some way). Beyond our own dominion, however, we are limited. Propaganda has occasionally been known to be effective, but it has also been known to produce remarkable backlashes. Prosecuting extra-territorial offenders is costly and dangerous--suited only to particularly egregious cases.

Outside of gay souvereignity, executing justice shall be limited to cases of extraordinary crimes against the gay people, but then be accomplished consecuently.

In the vaste majority of countries, religious leaders condemn homosexuality, but do not explicitely instigate to killings of gays. As a wide-spread phenomenon, gays are members of such churches and are performing tedious efforts to do what they call "reform the church from inside".

I would expect gay leadership to condemn hostile religions as consequently, as those religions condemn homosexuality. Local and global gay organizations should clearly denounce membership in any such religious organization as incompatible with being a "good homosexual" - because good homosexuals do not hate themselves and do not pay fees to their oppressors. Instead, we are increasingly confronted with gay leaders swaggering about the Catholic Church for regulations excluding gay priests - what the hell did the guys expect? Why shall we wish to be "included" into this homophobic criminal organization? By such ferwent pleadges for "inclusion" the Catholic Church is granted some degree of social acceptance within the gay community, whereas we should consecuently try to expell this organization from the public space. Certainly, in the most European and American Countries religious sects of any coleur have strong position, but this does not mean gays shall strive for "acceptance" in such organizations. Gay being member of the Catholic Church has something from a Jew being member of the National Socialist Party - certain things simply do not belong together.
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin

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Re: Religion
« Reply #11 on: Sat, May 13, 2006, 17:08 »

Gays of any religion must learn to understand that our sexuality is good - and that prophets or who ever pretends to speak for them were wrong in that respect.

Those gays will have to choose.Because it won`t be possible for them to have at the same time a life in a gay State and the slandering of homosexuality embodied in their respective faiths.Their hethro masters will have left,the first being precisely the religious fundamentalist ones
whom any decent gay State will simply expropriate and then expell.Thereafter,gay believers and weaklings will be faced with government gay
nationalistic propaganda exhalting our gay lifestyle with no one to appeal but foreign hethro powers,which will cast them in the role of traitors.
It is possible then that thus caught between two incompatible source of authority and sets of values,and incapable of choosing,gay believers and weaklings will simply collapse morally and psycologically.They will then take themselves the last and most logical and consequent action of their lives.After which,we shall live happily in political independence and freedom without them.

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Re: Religion
« Reply #10 on: Sat, May 13, 2006, 10:08 »

The mere membership in the Catholic Church might, if at all, constitute a minor case of participation in a criminal organization. What kind of corrective actions would be imposed upon the unfortunate fellows, is beyound of my imagination. But you have right - some compulsory re-socialization program, like picking fruits for a season, does not sound overly cruel.  >:)

An alternative would be the "vacation resort".Vacation area of a sort yes,but with some - not all - characteristics of a booth camp.There gay traitors,believers in anti-gay creeds,would be given the opportunity to apply their energies to concrete situations having to do with human dominion over nature rather than with obedience to an inexistent god or empty metaphysical speculation.Climbing mountains,hiking (no less than 50 kilometers,and preferably under rain or snowstorm),sports entailing some measure of physical risk,like river rafting.After a while,gay believers would perhaps come to understand that it is mankind who administrates and,where he wishes,modifies nature.Surely,it would appear better to them to play the role of the modifier than of the one of the treasonous element to be modified.

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Re: Religion
« Reply #9 on: Sat, May 13, 2006, 07:46 »

Within our own sovereign borders, we can only try to persuade people of the truth and criminalize slanders against the gay people (such as our sexuality is bad in some way). Beyond our own dominion, however, we are limited. Propaganda has occasionally been known to be effective, but it has also been known to produce remarkable backlashes. Prosecuting extra-territorial offenders is costly and dangerous--suited only to particularly egregious cases.

Where we are sovereign and hold suprema postestas,we must declare unilaterally fundamentalist and anti-gay religions as ennemies of the people and of the State,and then act.Not negociate.The hostilities are to be pursued relentlessly,with two goals: 1) from non-gays,we accept only their departure from our country 2) from gay agents of anti-gay religions,only their unconditional surrender to the secular authority of our Republic.With
irrational people,their is to be no discussion,only action.

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Re: Religion
« Reply #8 on: Sat, May 13, 2006, 07:38 »


The focus was so far on Islam and Christianity, but what about other religions?


"Abraham sacrifices Issaac"

If they have no organized clergy,no international organization or designs and no political activity,let them do what they want.Pagan ones could be encouraged as substitutes,particularly if they have gay overtones and role model characters.

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Re: Religion
« Reply #7 on: Sat, May 13, 2006, 07:32 »

However, the re-socialization of subversive elements appears not of the highest priority to gay population. A more urgent issue is the inner strugle of many homosexuals with a Jewish-Christian-Islamic background. They often live in a permanent conflict between their sexual identity and their religious beliefs - and this conflict shall not be underscored. The religious beliefs are often a permanent source of self-hatred, or at least of self-denigration. A

I have observed at close range such gays.One was a hansome young man,who could not summon the courage to approach and enter the local gay bar on saturday nights without first spending half and hour praying in a nearby church.Since this was not enough,he had to fortify himself with alcool,whereupon he then effectively showd up at the bar,most often already drunk.He told me the miserable story of his being totally under the aegis of religion.He besides feared all figures of authority,being on the far-right politically.AIDS,which he finally caught,spared us of his further presence in our midst.He would have made an ideal candidate for the so called ex-gay movement.My reaction to such weaklings is not compassion,but figuring how to exploit their weakness so that it could be usefull to us instead of harmfull.If bullying them is the method which sets them in motion,let`s bully them.Let us be the fatherly and authority figures whom they do not dare challenging.

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Re: Religion
« Reply #6 on: Sat, May 13, 2006, 06:36 »

Quote
A very common self-view among religious homosexuals is that homosexuality were a sin, but as all humans are sinners, so it's OK. One can not overweight the fatal immoralty of such way of thinking - one gets used to knowingly do wrong things. How shall we expect such a person to be a valuable member of society, a responsible citizen? No - this dangerous mistake must be eradicated consequently and resolutely. Gays of any religion must learn to understand that our sexuality is good - and that prophets or who ever pretends to speak for them were wrong in that respect. The prize question is: how can such a noble goal of enlightment be achieved in countries under religious rule?

Within our own sovereign borders, we can only try to persuade people of the truth and criminalize slanders against the gay people (such as our sexuality is bad in some way). Beyond our own dominion, however, we are limited. Propaganda has occasionally been known to be effective, but it has also been known to produce remarkable backlashes. Prosecuting extra-territorial offenders is costly and dangerous--suited only to particularly egregious cases.
Stonewall was a riot.
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