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[Mogul]

In a gay State,gays who remain members of,say,the catholic church,will have to be prosecuted for treason.At the times of the establishment of the State,it might be necessary to make a certain number of examples,I mean here at the level of sentencing.Like some form of penal work crew which would perform all disagreable tasks around the country,picking fruit for example.

Sounds like the Chinese "improvement camps"? I suppose, I will be not the only one to oppose persecution because of religious beliefs - in the Gay State gays should feel comfortable and do not fear governmental oppression, don't you think so? After all, "treason" is a very serious allegation - and should be used more carefully. The mere membership in the Catholic Church might, if at all, constitute a minor case of participation in a criminal organization. What kind of corrective actions would be imposed upon the unfortunate fellows, is beyound of my imagination. But you have right - some compulsory re-socialization program, like picking fruits for a season, does not sound overly cruel. 

However, the re-socialization of subversive elements appears not of the highest priority to gay population. A more urgent issue is the inner strugle of many homosexuals with a Jewish-Christian-Islamic background. They often live in a permanent conflict between their sexual identity and their religious beliefs - and this conflict shall not be underscored. The religious beliefs are often a permanent source of self-hatred, or at least of self-denigration. A self-confident man can preserve his dignity even in worst circumstances, but how shall one live without a self-respect?

A very common self-view among religious homosexuals is that homosexuality were a sin, but as all humans are sinners, so it's OK. One can not overweight the fatal immoralty of such way of thinking - one gets used to knowingly do wrong things. How shall we expect such a person to be a valuable member of society, a responsible citizen? No - this dangerous mistake must be eradicated consequently and resolutely. Gays of any religion must learn to understand that our sexuality is good - and that prophets or who ever pretends to speak for them were wrong in that respect. The prize question is: how can such a noble goal of enlightment be achieved in countries under religious rule?

[Mogul]

The question of "good and "bad" religions emerged on the board several times, and I think we could continue our discussions on this issue in a special thread. For a good beginning, I will merge some posts from other threads here in.

The focus was so far on Islam and Christianity, but what about other religions?


"Abraham sacrifices Issaac"

[K6]

However, those of them who are members in official churches effectively are supporters of hostile organizations, this much is also clear.

In a gay State,gays who remain members of,say,the catholic church,will have to be prosecuted for treason.At the times of the establishment of
the State,it might be necessary to make a certain number of examples,I mean here at the level of sentencing.Like some form of penal work crew
which would perform all disagreable tasks around the country,picking fruit for example.

K6

[Mogul]

[..] In our case,the ones to play against the others would the gay pagans or animists.Pagans and animists against christians.Gay christians,either individuals or specific gay churches,I tend to regard as traitors.Not being rational,they would not understand an objective depiction of christianism as an ennemy of the gay people and State.They would not miss however to understand the meaning of a court action against them for treason. [..]

Having some religious or philosophical beliefs is most certainly a private issue and shall not be questioned by the state. Whether someone believes in Jesus, Mohammed or Albert Einstein, is non of the states busines - anything else would be a mind control a lá "1984". A person can not be jailed simply for "wrong" beliefs, even not for evil thoughts - solely the deeds can be subject of criminal persecution. However, certain activities of priests might very well constitute a violation of law, especially instigation to hate crimes, or even simple subversive propaganda.

One must acknowledge that all the scriptures in question are indeed comlex works and contain many good ethics, some trash, and a few wicked statuts. Ron was right - they are just books. There is nothing wrong in believing the "good" part of those teachings, while refusing the "evil" or simply "erroneous" parts of them, and that's the reason why so many Christians and Moslems and Jews are indeed very amicable people, when known privately. However, those of them who are members in official churches effectively are supporters of hostile organizations, this much is also clear.

[K6]

I agree that indeed there are little chances to appeal to the moral principles of people who a priory regard you as a creature below the right of existence. The secular state is at any means the best choice, however we usually operate in given conditions such as religiously dominated societies. Surely one should discriminate between moderate and fundamentalist mullahs/priests, and probably it's smart to support the ones while fighting the others.

When I went to Cuba in 1996,I had the impression that the government was encouraging the local and national Santeria cult in order to undermine the position of the official catholic church.The Santeria,though it has a clergy of a sort in the person of balalaos and madrinas,is not organized as is the catholic church.Above all,it doesn`t talkes orders from abroad,being a genuine local religion.And while outwardly and at first glance it may resemble catholicism,it is more an african religion than a western one.It has more to do with the Voodoo cult of Haiti than with catholicism.So far as I can make up,it is inoffensive.Most cubans I have encoutered were Santeristas.They are not atheists as their political regime may suggess.In our case,the ones to play against the others would the gay pagans or animists.Pagans and animists against christians.Gay
christians,either individuals or specific gay churches,I tend to regard as traitors.Not being rational,they would not understand an objective depiction of christianism as an ennemy of the gay people and State.They would not miss however to understand the meaning of a court action against them for treason.The way to deal with churches,and thus with irrational people,should be through action,not words or explanations.

K6