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[Sage]

Is anyone still around who speaks Polari?

[Frozen19]

I have come across the ideal language for our needs. It is called  Sona. One of the things that impressed me about it was that it pulled from most of the major languages  (not just European ones).  Not to mention its structure is setup in a way that is simple to follow and allows for the easy creation of new words. It just so happens that its creator was also gay. 
da mie bi en. (lets use it)     

[Mogul]

It would be some people, anyway, who [..] would decline English by political reasons and by stating that this international language will only make problem with immigration since the State would be purpose for unwanted immigrants one day... so Dutch - Nederlands taal - would be great. It's easier than English, French or German, not as much spoken as Chinese or Spanish so won't attract unneeded immigration [..]

Ah! But we expressly wish to encourage immigration by Gay people to the said landslip, don't we? Much can be argued for English exactly for this reason that it would make life for many "skilled migrants" easier. Those without sufficient English knowledge would be clearly put at an unfair disadvantage in the social life, though. For the sake of social cohesion, a language like IDO or Esperanto would be usefull, I think -- all new citizens would start at equal basis.

[Evgueni Debacker]

Anyway, Ido is worse than Esperanto.

Esperanto is more international, Ido - more - European.
Esperanto - one sound - one letter - always. In Ido - mostly.
Esperanto does have more international dictionary, while Ido - more European. Ido is easier for Europeans, but more difficult for others... like Chinese people.

We should maybe try 4 languages like Switzerland?

1) English. No comments! Anyone people would speak English, no way to avoid this, even if we will try to prohibit.
2) Gay language. Not sure if real need... but great idea, let it be, even though I will never study it. (But - you never know!)
3) Esperanto. Simply the best language. I don't know any better one, really. Good thing that "bisexuality" in this language is not "bi", but... well, there is a word meaning that gender is irrelevant rather than both genders are involved. So it will help - even though not as much as gay language... for now gay language is only an idea.
4) It would be some people, anyway, who wouldn't accept any planned languages (Gay, Esperanto, Ido, Interlingua etc), but would decline English by political reasons and by stating that this international language will only make problem with immigration since the State would be purpose for unwanted immigrants one day... so Dutch - Nederlands taal - would be great. It's easier than English, French or German, not as much spoken as Chinese or Spanish so won't attract unneeded immigration, and you know what the Netherlands gaven at 2001 by allowing gender-nautral marriage.

But main one should be Esperanto in my opinion.

[Frozen19]

For a while now I have been working on an artificial language. Recenty I have finished most parts of the grammer system however the actual words lack meaning.  It was said by another that we lack words of our own and what better a chance than now to create them.  I will be attempting to create a place on  the web devoted to its developement so until then please PM me if you are interested.  Just think of what effects this will have on gay nationality.   

[Adriano_tv83]

In another topic Mogul wrote:

I think this subject warrants a topic of its own.

Language is, of course, an issue for any international movement. The matter came up briefly in the discourse of the Gay Kingdom. While every language has it's partisans, there is much to be said for adopting a separate 'auxiliary' language for ourselves. There are several such languages, and the problem with this sort of discussion is that some clever fellow will invariably suggest Klingon.

The obvious choice is, of course, Esperanto since it is the most commonly spoken language of its type. I have no problem with such an adoption -- my husband and I used to be prone to gossiping quite shamelessly in it. However, the number of people who speak Esperanto is quite irrelevant to its usefulness as a national language. There are several problems with the language, as it's proponents have long been aware. Ido addresses all of these difficulties. It can even be typed on a perfectly ordinary keyboard -- a definite bonus. I could wholeheartedly endorse Ido as well.

But the problem of language extends deeper for gay people than the multiplicity of languages spoken on Earth. That problem is simple to solve: we all agree to learn some alternative. *POOF* Problem gone. The deeper problem remains -- we have no words.

The word 'husband' does not correctly characterize Ninja_monkey's status. Nor does 'marriage' properly describe the relationship we have maintained these past 20 years. They are analogs -- we force them to serve, and then explain. A mere generation ago the gay people popularized the word 'gay' to name ourselves because we lacked a suitable word. 'Schwule' was adopted for much the same reason.

Esperanto (and Ido, which shares the bulk of it's vocabulary) is a fine language for talking about heterosexuals. All languages are fine languages for talking about heterosexuals. It is not our intention to spend all of our time talking about them; it is high time we talked a bit more about ourselves. Language shapes the way we think, and therefore the way we act in the world. No matter what language we speak now or choose to speak in the future, we shall lack important words that describe us, who we are, the things we do, and the things we dream of. There was a time when (in English at least) gays adopted a body of slang in the form of Polari to make up for some of these deficits.

If we were to adopt an auxiliary language (an idea which has considerable merit), we would still face the task of modifying and amending that language to express gay thoughts. We face that task even if we do not adopt such a language.

I already faced a "question over language" in my homeland, Veneto (north eastern), Italy. We had an ancient language (Venetic) influenced by latin wich gave birth to the actual "Veneto", a tongue used by the Serenissima Republic of Venice and its people. Problem is that Venice covered a lot of lands with manies languages: greek, veneto, ladino, cimbro, slavic languages etc. She pulled to find a new language, noble and steady... so italian arose and its first grammars where written by people of Venice or inland controlled by the city.
What about gay people? We are everywhere! We speak so manies languages! Do we need a common language? An italian party, the Radicali Italiani (Emma Bonino, Marco Pannella should be known out of Italy for their support to gay people) is fighting to introduce esperanto ad European language, against the discrimination for non-english mothertongue. Esperanto seems to be the better tongue for us but we should evaluate it: it's essential, very simple, easy to understand and learn but could it be used to produce a law text or to write a significative writing?

[Frozen19]

I think it is noteworthy to mention that IDO does have a few minor flaws. For example Ido  favors people of European decent over other backgrounds.  What the gay republic needs is a more universal language.  Mabey Ido can be altered to include some japanese and korean words (japanese uses pure vowels like IDO). This could be very helpfull in gaining gay asian support. It is important to add that whatever language is used should be gramatically neutral to most culture groups.
See you all around, Frozen

[Mogul]

For those with a sense of self-irony, The Principles of Newspeak:

Newspeak was the official language of Oceania and had been devised to meet the ideological needs of Ingsoc, or English Socialism. In the year 1984 there was not as yet anyone who used Newspeak as his sole means of communication, either in speech or writing. The leading articles in ‘The Times’ were written in it, but this was a TOUR DE FORCE which could only be carried out by a specialist. It was expected that Newspeak would have finally superseded Oldspeak (or Standard English, as we should call it) by about the year 2050. Meanwhile it gained ground steadily, all Party members tending to use Newspeak words and grammatical constructions more and more in their everyday speech. The version in use in 1984, and embodied in the Ninth and Tenth Editions of the Newspeak Dictionary, was a provisional one, and contained many superfluous words and archaic formations which were due to be suppressed later. It is with the final, perfected version, as embodied in the Eleventh Edition of the Dictionary, that we are concerned here.

The purpose of Newspeak was not only to provide a medium of expression for the world-view and mental habits proper to the devotees of Ingsoc, but to make all other modes of thought impossible. It was intended that when Newspeak had been adopted once and for all and Oldspeak forgotten, a heretical thought—that is, a thought diverging from the principles of Ingsoc—should be literally unthinkable, at least so far as thought is dependent on words. Its vocabulary was so constructed as to give exact and often very subtle expression to every meaning that a Party member could properly wish to express, while excluding all other meanings and also the possibility of arriving at them by indirect methods. This was done partly by the invention of new words, but chiefly by eliminating undesirable words and by stripping such words as remained of unorthodox meanings, and so far as possible of all secondary meanings whatever. To give a single example. The word FREE still existed in Newspeak, but it could only be used in such statements as ‘This dog is free from lice’ or ‘This field is free from weeds’. It could not be used in its old sense of ‘politically free’ or ‘intellectually free’ since political and intellectual freedom no longer existed even as concepts, and were therefore of necessity nameless. Quite apart from the suppression of definitely heretical words, reduction of vocabulary was regarded as an end in itself, and no word that could be dispensed with was allowed to survive. Newspeak was designed not to extend but to DIMINISH the range of thought, and this purpose was indirectly assisted by cutting the choice of words down to a minimum.

[..]

A good deal of the literature of the past was, indeed, already being transformed in this way. Considerations of prestige made it desirable to preserve the memory of certain historical figures, while at the same time bringing their achievements into line with the philosophy of Ingsoc. Various writers, such as Shakespeare, Milton, Swift, Byron, Dickens, and some others were therefore in process of translation: when the task had been completed, their original writings, with all else that survived of the literature of the past, would be destroyed. These translations were a slow and difficult business, and it was not expected that they would be finished before the first or second decade of the twenty-first century. There were also large quantities of merely utilitarian literature—indispensable technical manuals, and the like—that had to be treated in the same way. It was chiefly in order to allow time for the preliminary work of translation that the final adoption of Newspeak had been fixed for so late a date as 2050.

As always, George Orwell's 1984 is an invaluable source of inspiration.

One should, however, not forget that while his analysis of technics of totalitarian propaganda are quite accurate, there is no causal relation between grammar complexity and limitation in thought. In fact, there are several historic examples when simplification of the formal structure of the official language lead to a larger accessibility to intellectual goods and a boost in free thinking. It was not before Luther translated the Bible into German that the middle class was able to understand what that book actually meant, and it was not before the introduction of the list of tōyō kanji in 1946 that an average Japanese would be able to fully understand the newspaper or an official proclamation.

[felneymike]

In Britian in the 50's and early 60's there was a kind of "gay language" called Polari, but it was really a series of "code words" so people could talk about gay activities or pass admiring/bitchy comments about people without drawing attention to themselves. Ones i can remember from a site i saw ages ago where "Riah" for Hair, "Bona" for good, "Naff" for bad (which found it's way into normal British language) and "Dish" for arse (which gave rise to the word "Dishy" meaning attractive, i never had the heart to tell the homophobic woman at work who always said it about that XD).

But personally i think any Gay homeland should adopt a common language. The Internet and "dominance of the west" has made English common throughout the world (oh and the British empire helped a bit XD). But the language with the most speakers is Mandarin, i think the homeland should adopt one of those and provide intensive language courses for free to new immigrants (to avoid the counterproductive notions of the ghetto, or multiculturalism)

[Mogul]

There is a yahoo discussion group for gay and lesbian Idists: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/glidisti/. It would be interestingly to discuss the issue of gay vocabulary with the (few) folks there as well. 

The Esperantists are rather chauvinist about the "purity" of their language. Perhaps Idists are as well, perhaps not.

Why, yes?  Both IDO and Esperanto are so-called planned languages, which only advantage (in comparison to other languages) lies in the purity and perfection of their grammar and vocabulary (that's why I consider IDO be "better" then Esperanto). If everyone would start doctor around on the official version of IDO as he/she likes, after a few decades the language would be ruined and offer no advantage in comparison to English, French or Spanish.  That's why I would advocate to leave the core language under scholars' control, even if this means we must fund our own Instituto por IDO gaya.

Some enquiry into what words already exist (or can be reasonably formed) is certainly called for, but I was not thinking of asking anyone's permission to speak my mind -- in Esperanto, Ido, or any other language. Alas, language is a flexible thing, and it mutates quite rapidly when it falls from the tongues of gays.

The flexibility of a language is on one side a necessity dictated by the changing reality (new technologies, changed social realities, novel philosophical concepts), on the other side it is too often an aftereffect of an unfortunate decay of read-and-write skills. We shall be welcoming to new creations, but we should not officially accept any wrong-spelling of already existing vocabulary. The reason for such conservatism on my side is pretty simple - readers shall be capable to understand a text written in a particular language even 10.000 years later.

Of course, the actual use of the language in everyday life is quite another thing - people do not care much of the official guildlines and talk the way they like - with all the impossible and weird costructions which make our language funny and enjoyable. Only a fool would insist on ignoring such developements or (even worse) try to prohibit their use. Therefore, the linguists will have to analize the vocabulary of the living language and provide the compillations of new and imported words (for people who failed to make their black belt in google-fu). 

There is a difference, however, in the academic approach of studying a language and the normative approach of establishing a language for everybody (Idiomo Di Omni). To bring this two contradicting tendencies to a peaceful coexistence, I think it smart to issue two separate dictionaries: a standad IDO dictionary for educational and official use, and the supplementary IDO dictionary reflecting the additional words actually used by the population.

The important thing is to stop being chained by heterosexual vocabularies. They are just words. We must seize control of our own mouths and our own thoughts.

Sure. Partially we already have created our own gay sleng in almost every language of this world - by reclaiming mainstream words or creating new ones. Thanks to the growing cultural exchange between various national gay communities, expressions such as butch, drag queen, rice queen, seme and uke, Urning became wide-spread among gays around the world, not to mention all the local gay slang. Certainly, copying 1:1 the words from the heterosexual language usage might lead to not intended results, e.g. adopting the content of the institution described by the word - the recent example being the words "marriage", "family" and "children".

There are indeed some gay cultural institutions, which are actually unknown in the (western) heterosexual world. How shall we describe a young gay boy who was informally "adopted" by a gay couple or by an entire clique, whereby some of the olders have sex with this "adoptee", others being rather somewhat of a tutor? In Russian language there is an ironic expression for such a lad: "Сын полка" ("son of the military brigade"), referring to the times of WWII, when lost/runaway kids often were taken in care by army sub-divisions or partisan units. 


---------------------------------------------------------
A notice somewhat off topic:

Perhaps one of the first expressiones uniquely used for same-sex relationships was paed erastes describing the older man (erastes) desiring adolescent boys (paedika, eromeni). The gay community sees this expression with a loughing and a wheeping eye: though it exactly describes what many of our friends are, the aura of "child molestors" was long (and still is) used as a weapon against our community. You see, not only we gays can re-claim words for own purposes.

[Feral]

My memory (which betrays me more times than I would like) insisted that I had seen the Esperanto word "geja" in print already. Upon searching a bit I find that indeed, the adjective "geja" is in use in Esperanto to refer to homosexuals. Naturally, one automatically infers the existance of the root "gej-" which leads us to a great many words (some of which are difficult to grasp -- the adverb "geje," for instance).

This is all fine, as long as a supplementary dictionary is issued regularly.

LOL

The Esperantists are rather chauvinist about the "purity" of their language. Perhaps Idists are as well, perhaps not. Some enquiry into what words already exist (or can be reasonably formed) is certainly called for, but I was not thinking of asking anyone's permission to speak my mind -- in Esperanto, Ido, or any other language. Alas, language is a flexible thing, and it mutates quite rapidly when it falls from the tongues of gays. Just this evening the Ninja Monkey and I were venting about the recent unfavorable marriage decision in the UK, and the phrase "damn frajuli" popped right out. "Spawners" indeed. Dictionaries are all well and good -- they serve to catch up people who have not been paying attention. This year the folks at the Oxford English Dictionary have decided that "Google" is a verb. Well, of course it is! I have been googling things for about three years now. In due course the compilers of dictionaries may even come to recognize the mystic art of google-fu. It is usage and usage alone that propels new words into a language.

The important thing is to stop being chained by heterosexual vocabularies. They are just words. We must seize control of our own mouths and our own thoughts.

[Mogul]

However, the number of people who speak Esperanto is quite irrelevant to its usefulness as a national language. There are several problems with the language, as it's proponents have long been aware. Ido addresses all of these difficulties. It can even be typed on a perfectly ordinary keyboard -- a definite bonus. I could wholeheartedly endorse Ido as well.

Esperanto is, of course, a fine language, but it incorporated several "bugs" which are so typical for every alpha-version, and which make the language unnecessary complicated - a severe drawback for a language designed for the purpose of simplicity and logic. Advantageously, IDO has overcome these few mistakes of its predecessor and has become a really fine language. It sounds really nice, and, most important, it has simple and very logical grammar -- as simple as possible, as complex as necessary -- and a compact pool of word roots. It is really much easier to learn than English (or any other language I know), thus being very suitable for beginners to achieve the necessary skills in relatively short time. If gay people should decide to adopt an auxiliary language, IDO would be probably the best choice.

But the problem of language extends deeper for gay people than the multiplicity of languages spoken on Earth. That problem is simple to solve: we all agree to learn some alternative. *POOF* Problem gone. The deeper problem remains -- we have no words.
The word 'husband' does not correctly characterize Ninja_monkey's status. Nor does 'marriage' properly describe the relationship we have maintained these past 20 years. They are analogs -- we force them to serve, and then explain. A mere generation ago the gay people popularized the word 'gay' to name ourselves because we lacked a suitable word. 'Schwule' was adopted for much the same reason.

Very true - sometimes thing do not have their proper name and one must either create new words or fill the existing ones with new contents. Both ways are justified. What words are best suitable to describe our everyday realities, is entirely up to us - and it is not like this that our people lack creativity. The English word "marriage" describes an institution which anyway does not have the same meaning in all parts oof the world - the spectrum goes from the catholic "until the death separates you" to an informal tribal rituals in "primitive" societies. Shall the gays adopt this institution under their own souvereignity, it will be most certainly very different from other countries. Whatever words there will be choosen, the real innovation will be to create various institutions which suit best the demands of the gay people.

Some words in IDO:

• marriage = mariajo
• civil marriage = civila mariajo
• spouse = spozo
• husband = spozulo
• wife = spozino
• unmarried quasi-spouse = konkubo (n)
• unmarried quasi-spouse = konkubulo (m)
• unmarried quasi-spouse = konkubino (f)
• harem = haremo
• lover = amanto (n)
• lover = amantulo (m)
• lover = amantino (f)
• beloved = amato (n)
• prostitute = putano (n) 
• child = puero (n)
• homosexual person = homeosexualo (n)
• cheerful = gaya
• gay person = gayo (not in the dictionary, but gramatically correct) 
• clan = klano

The specifically male or female form can be shaped by inserting -ul- or -in- right before the final -o in case of necessety, but out of convenience the neutral form probably will be used mostly (also it sounds much smoother). The problem of very poor vocabulary especially for gay issues is striking, but we shall not forget that this is not yet a "finished" language, there is certainly space for innovation.

Language shapes the way we think, and therefore the way we act in the world. No matter what language we speak now or choose to speak in the future, we shall lack important words that describe us, who we are, the things we do, and the things we dream of. [..] If we were to adopt an auxiliary language (an idea which has considerable merit), we would still face the task of modifying and amending that language to express gay thoughts. We face that task even if we do not adopt such a language.

The standard IDO-vocabulary is suitable for administrative purposes, but it indeed fails entirely to cover the reality of gay people. One established as a living language, IDO (at least our version of it) will be permanently being adjusted to actual realities of the gay population. Therefore it is clear that there will be a necessity to "officially introduce" new word roots to match the language of the people - why not? Once spoken by a considerable number of people in their dayly life, our auxiliary language will inevitably escape its close academic corset and will develope on its own, still retaining its excellent grammar. There is little doubt that immigrants from different countries will unconsciously "smuggle" a word or two from their native languages into the general use, therefore establishing one or more slangs attached to the official language. It is well possible, that "schwuchtelo", "chickeno" and "mariposo" will peacefully co-exist in the gay version of IDO. This is all fine, as long as a supplementary dictionary is issued regularly.

Parts of the the gay slang vocabulary can be adopted, as long as it does not collide with the standard vocabulary. For example, butch.in.o can be easily adopted for the "masculine lesbian", whereas the kamp.o for an "effeminate person" can be confused with kamp.ey.o ("camp, camp site").

The best way to enlarge the official vocabulary would be probably the systematic approach (which is a good tradition in IDO): we should first make a list of words which appear to be missing to describe our realities, and than contest the various suggestions for each word on this list. It is clear, that not only European languages shall be taken into account, but also Arabic, Asian and African. Cooperation with the various IDO societies shall be established then as soon as possible, probably they will be gaya to play around a little bit with this interesting issue.

[Feral]

In another topic Mogul wrote:

If the Gay State is to secure the cross-border immigration rates as high as the internal migration rates elsewhere, it shall find solutions to help migrants to overcome the above difficulties connected to the language and new legal system. First of all, migrants must quickly learn the country language, because otherwise they will be not able to find an appropriate job corresponding with their professional skills. The ways to solve this problem are either a very simple, easy-to-learn country language (Esperanto, IDO, Basic English) or a very massive deploy of language courses for all and for free. Second, migrants must have chances to get their professional skills recognized or evaluated, and in case of necessity be helped to gain the necessary level.

I think this subject warrants a topic of its own.

Language is, of course, an issue for any international movement. The matter came up briefly in the discourse of the Gay Kingdom. While every language has it's partisans, there is much to be said for adopting a separate 'auxiliary' language for ourselves. There are several such languages, and the problem with this sort of discussion is that some clever fellow will invariably suggest Klingon.

The obvious choice is, of course, Esperanto since it is the most commonly spoken language of its type. I have no problem with such an adoption -- my husband and I used to be prone to gossiping quite shamelessly in it. However, the number of people who speak Esperanto is quite irrelevant to its usefulness as a national language. There are several problems with the language, as it's proponents have long been aware. Ido addresses all of these difficulties. It can even be typed on a perfectly ordinary keyboard -- a definite bonus. I could wholeheartedly endorse Ido as well.

But the problem of language extends deeper for gay people than the multiplicity of languages spoken on Earth. That problem is simple to solve: we all agree to learn some alternative. *POOF* Problem gone. The deeper problem remains -- we have no words.

The word 'husband' does not correctly characterize Ninja_monkey's status. Nor does 'marriage' properly describe the relationship we have maintained these past 20 years. They are analogs -- we force them to serve, and then explain. A mere generation ago the gay people popularized the word 'gay' to name ourselves because we lacked a suitable word. 'Schwule' was adopted for much the same reason.

Esperanto (and Ido, which shares the bulk of it's vocabulary) is a fine language for talking about heterosexuals. All languages are fine languages for talking about heterosexuals. It is not our intention to spend all of our time talking about them; it is high time we talked a bit more about ourselves. Language shapes the way we think, and therefore the way we act in the world. No matter what language we speak now or choose to speak in the future, we shall lack important words that describe us, who we are, the things we do, and the things we dream of. There was a time when (in English at least) gays adopted a body of slang in the form of Polari to make up for some of these deficits.

If we were to adopt an auxiliary language (an idea which has considerable merit), we would still face the task of modifying and amending that language to express gay thoughts. We face that task even if we do not adopt such a language.