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Author Topic: Bisexuals misunderstood by straight, LGBT communities  (Read 7851 times)

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Feral

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Re: Bisexuals misunderstood by straight, LGBT communities
« Reply #9 on: Sat, Jul 12, 2008, 08:45 »

All - even straight would be nationals of the State.

But only gay and lesbian people would be citizens. True?  :=V

If it were up to me, I would phrase it as everyone who lives there is a resident, everyone who lives there permanently is a national, and everyone who has earned the rights of citizenship is a citizen.

Just what requirements there are for citizenship is a delicate matter... a subject worthy of debate. Until those requirements are settled, it is not possible to say whether a straight person would find qualifying for citizenship just as easy or more difficult than a Gay person. I know many straight people who would make far better citizens of a Gay state than some Gay people I know.

Many states do not serve the interests of Gay persons living within their territories at all and are proud of the fact. Many states do not serve the interests of Gay persons living within their territories very well (even though they claim they do). If a state is to be founded to serve the interests of its Gay citizens well, then one requirement, surely, would be that all citizens of any orientation be able to fully comply with the rights that state has accorded its Gay citizens.

It would be foolish to presume that straight people cannot, by nature, accomplish this task. It would be more foolish to assume that they can.
Stonewall was a riot.

Evgueni Debacker

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Re: Bisexuals misunderstood by straight, LGBT communities
« Reply #8 on: Fri, Jul 11, 2008, 22:37 »

All - even straight would be nationals of the State.

But only gay and lesbian people would be citizens. True?  :=V

Mogul

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Re: Bisexuals misunderstood by straight, LGBT communities
« Reply #7 on: Thu, Jul 10, 2008, 21:55 »

So - can bisexual person ever be citizen of State? Or then heterosexuality must be declined?

Hm, a kind of a dilemma, isn't it? I can't imagine that there would be a strong wish among the Gay population to exclude Bisexuals in principle. Love whomever you want to love, and marry whomever you want to marry. As far as the residential rights are concerned, there should be no problems (even with few heterosexuals, if they are decent people).

From political perspective, there are good arguments both for and against including Bisexuals into political processes of the Gay state. From one side, all residents should have some rights to participate in the social life of their city regardless to sexuality. From another side, it can be argued that the Bisexuals have clearly different interests than Gays and the concept of the Gay state would be "watered down" if it accepted Bisexuals for citizenship.

A possible solution might be the separation of the communal administration of the Gay City from the political network which the Gay State essentially will be. In this approach, not every City resident qualifies for Gay citizenship (which would be basically the membership in the Gay political network). All residents would thus have equal civil rights, but not all of them would be granted the political rights except perhapts ones concerning local city issues.

Another approach is, that Bisexuals (and a few worthy straights) undoubtedly do qualify for full citizenship. There are prominent supporters of this view in this forum, but also those who dismisse such a notion as dangerous and contrary to the state reason. As no single person is (or ever will be) in the position to dictate his/her personal views on the issue, the most probable outcome will be some quota regulation to ensure the further existence of the state how it was intended.
« Last Edit: Thu, Jul 10, 2008, 21:59 by Mogul »
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin

Evgueni Debacker

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Re: Bisexuals misunderstood by straight, LGBT communities
« Reply #6 on: Thu, Jul 10, 2008, 17:27 »

Oh yes... there is a problem.

Example - Germans who are living in Russia are returning to Germany coz Russian hate them saying - you are German!

In Germany it's then also problem - Russians, go home!


What I want to say... if I'm bisexual... I don't like this word though - irsexual would be better - since I don't think it's normal to want both genders at the same time. Well, it's normal but not honest.
What I feel is that gender is irrelevant... yes, relations m+m and m+f is different, but isn't different German 18 boy + German 18 boy and Old British Man and Young Chinese Teen? Everything is different...

So - can bisexual person ever be citizen of State? Or then heterosexuality must be declined?

I don't ask whether you will allow marriages between persons of different genders. But at least it may be possible... well, it's difficult for me to talk, since you can say - you are not gay - go away... but society also says me to go away... they don't care what I feel, and if I'm being in love with men - they think I'm a GAY, and it's irrelevant for them that I'm NOT a gay. But I feel gay in POLITICAL sense.

I wish to live in a gay state but... yes, I understand that normal gay wouldn't accept person who can be with woman, while "normal" (how they like to describe themselves) won't tolerate me... what to do?! And what life is... in Russia I prefer to avoid saying anything that may make think of me as bisexual coz Russians don't tolerate GAYS, and gays would require me to renounce from heterosexuality.

But how can I cut off half of me?! Well, I can... but WHAT part should I cut off?

Athrael

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Re: Bisexuals misunderstood by straight, LGBT communities
« Reply #5 on: Wed, May 02, 2007, 06:14 »

 :gi I know its hard for those bisexuals, but hey they made a choice...    :N to be 'that way'.  :T

I have heard it said that in reality homo and hetro are a minority and are two ends of a long string where degrees of bisexuality exist. And the "dread" of being gay is what keeps the majority from exploring same sex relationships of a sexual nature.

This may explain the strong dread of gays, a majority of people have the urge to one degree or another but society and religion teaches it is wrong so the out and open gays are a symbol of unexplored sexual desires thus the target of all the crap we get. Thus the idea that people can "turn gay" because we are taught to suppress a great deal of natural sexual expression - worse we are taught that they are wrong, or not explained to that human sexuality is far more complex than what most people believe.

Most people don't learn much about sex beyond the mechanics. Sex drive is not well understood and it isn't until the 20th century that sexuality was considered a science worth researching. For most of human history we relied on myth and religion to lay down the fabric of what is sexuality, in many eras of the past sex was not even discussed, and in a few of those eras sex was not even acknowledged as actually taking place.

Even the Gay community which has a little more knowledge about sex, is still conditioned to expect certain things out of sexuality and relationships. Some of which should not be expected at all like a life long commitment to one mate.  Physiology, anthropology and history all tell a tale of how humans are designed for more than one mate in a life time.  If monogamy was natural to our species, then divorce rates would be far, far lower than the estimated 50%.

Even the experts will admit we do not know everything about human sexuality, there is a great deal left to learn as to the motivations and expressions out there.

Gays may be the opposite of straight, thus are easy to define themselves as something a little more clearly when it comes to "normal" hetero sexuality. Bisexuals fall somewhere in between. Given that we all suffer the programing of tradition and society some bias is to be expected even from the gay crowd who, one admits, is still stuck in the old framework of thinking about many aspects of sexuality.

According to obituary notices, a mean and useless citizen never dies.

Feral

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Re: Bisexuals misunderstood by straight, LGBT communities
« Reply #4 on: Wed, Apr 18, 2007, 16:10 »

Quote
I am readily acknowledging that bisexuals actually often are discriminated against in straight and gay circles, when it comes to mating.

Always this particular discussion (and several related to it) end up in my bedroom. It is a peculiar strategy, and an even stranger way of thinking.

Because I will not date a person I am for some reason prejudiced in some unpleasant way against that person?

Alas, I must be a wretched fellow indeed. Since I am married, there is nearly no one I would agree to date; all are unacceptable, all far short of my ridiculous standard. If you happen (through no fault of your own) to not have been born the man I married, I reject you out of hand (why, without even bothering to get to know you first... the scandal of it).

In a different venue that I observe frequently the topic du jour is the question "would you date a transgendered person?" From the tenor of the conversation, it seems I am terribly transphobic because (were I not married) I would not consider even for a moment dating a transwoman. Sweeties -- I am a gay man; I do not date woman. If that makes me misogynist as well, then paint the letters large when you hang the sign around my neck. Political analysis can be taken much to far. It can become absurd. When a person's politics presume to comment on whom I choose to have sex with and whom to share my life with, those politics have become a sad farce. There is a long list of crimes I am prone to accusing straight people, especially straight men, of committing. Cruelly refusing to date gay men is not among them.
Stonewall was a riot.

Mogul

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Re: Bisexuals misunderstood by straight, LGBT communities
« Reply #3 on: Wed, Apr 18, 2007, 05:19 »

I am readily acknowledging that bisexuals actually often are discriminated against in straight and gay circles, when it comes to mating. The reason is as simple as it can be: nobody wishes to engage in an emotional relationship with a person who might ab initio "miss" something in this relationship. Prejudice or not, the mere thought that my boyfriend might as well easily land in bed with another woman, seems particularly distastefull to me as a gay man.

Beyound this, 2 of 3 self-professing male bisexuals I personally know are older men who were married to women previously, and now feel more attracted to (much younger) men. That's what one might judge as the "fluent" sexuality changing with years, whereby the question is allowed whether the guys were not simply closeted homosexuals before? But again, those folks can certainly much better assess their own experiences and orientation, and it is far from me to put them into one or other drawer to regain order in my simple world view.

What I object is the notion introduced by queer theorists that both gender and sexual orientation are merely a question of social discourse, thus gender and sexuality were "fluent", "volatile" and "interchangable" in principle. While I again readily acknowledge that this might apply for some individuals, I am inclined to persist that this is obviously not true for all or even most individuals. While the projection of what applies for majority to all human beings is intrinsically wrong, it is no less wrong to extrapolate the "truth" of a minority to the entire rest of humanity as well.

While some people imagine an ideal world as being one with as few diversity as possible (to avoid division and mutual hostility), I am among those who appreciate the differences. It is OK for me to live in a world consisting of hetero-, bi- and homosexuals, of males, females and transgenders and morphological/genetical intersexuals, and watever other facettes of identity are there in the wide, complicated world. The simple truth is that whereas there might be some "continuum" in gender and sexual orientation, this imagined "continuum" is purelly a statistical one. The single individual can very well identify him/her/itself as belonging to one or other group without much difficulties; the group interest are often as clearly defined and might differ significantly.

In case of necessity, humans still can form alliances whatever their particular identity might be -- without blurring the differences.
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin

Feral

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Re: Bisexuals misunderstood by straight, LGBT communities
« Reply #2 on: Wed, Apr 18, 2007, 02:14 »

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She said she believes sexuality is fluid, or more of a continuum than two extremes.

I'll acknowledge that this is what she says she believes. I will go so far as to admit that there is little reason to doubt the sincerity of her belief as it applies to herself. Will I accept this definition easily? Why no. The statement is a false one. My sexuality is not fluid. Is there some continuum at which I just find myself at one extreme? So the queer theorists keep saying. So the old (and not very credible) studies of Kinsey keep saying. It has not been my experience that this is so.

The more recent studies that focus on what are essentially neurological issues are not finding a continuum per se. The data in these studies (the eye response to images and the scent response to pheromones in particular) show really quite distinct and separate entities with little or no overlap. The studies do not appear to have been crafted to demonstrate anything meaningful about bisexuals. Perhaps when further studies to verify these findings are conducted they will have more useful populations that will clarify the issue one way or another.

Since I'm not bisexual, I can hardly say what reality looks like for someone who is Bi. I've only personally known (that I can recall) one woman who identified as bisexual and two men who identified as bisexual. This is not what anyone would call a reasonable sample size, so the fact that the woman now readily says she is straight and was 'confused' when she said she was bi, along with the fact that both men now readily say they're gay and were 'lying' when they said they were bi (their words, not mine) is not really on point.

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be having difficulty understanding. No, I don't think all bisexuals are polyamorous orgy-seekers. That would be silly. Such people DO exist, however. I don't think that all bisexuals are confused or lying. That too would be silly. People ARE confused at times and people DO lie (especially about their orientation) at times. If it's this concept of a fluid, changing orientation that shifts over months or years from one subject to another... yes, that I do not understand. This is an alien experience to me. It's as perplexing a thought as sexual attraction to women. I know that lots of men experience it. I know that not a few women do as well. I, however, do not. I would never claim to understand it. That this 'fluid state' is so often described by bisexuals is probably the most convincing evidence that they really do exist.
« Last Edit: Wed, Apr 18, 2007, 02:18 by Feral »
Stonewall was a riot.

Mogul

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Bisexuals misunderstood by straight, LGBT communities
« Reply #1 on: Wed, Apr 18, 2007, 01:23 »

Bisexuals misunderstood by straight, LGBT communities
Quote
Almost any bisexual will tell you they feel misunderstood.

Called fence-sitters, confused, curious and sex-obsessed, the Bs of LGBT, face scrutiny from outside and within, often accused of using bisexuality as a transition from heterosexuality to homosexuality — or ‘bi now, gay later.’

Some wonder if bisexuality exists at all.

[..]

Kim Rogers, a senior psychology major, is bisexual. She said she believes sexuality is fluid, or more of a continuum than two extremes. But not everyone accepts this definition easily. She would like to say everyone is supportive of everyone, but both homosexuals and heterosexuals have difficulty understanding, she said.

Some thoughts on this?
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin
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