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Author Topic: An experiment to see how well the notion of a Gay nation would be taken  (Read 5789 times)

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Adriano_tv83

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Ah, this pesky question! Some curious minds were also wanting to know how the idea of a "Gay Nation" (likewise "Gay Homeland") would be received by our folks. Whatever the exact wording of the question was, the reactions were roughly the same: only few were supportive in principle, whereas most replies were negative, usually withouth much consideration of the idea.
The usual arguments against the idea of a Gay Nation are the following:

1) I am not only gay, I don't want to move to the gay ghetto and isolate myself from the mankind.
2) Gays are not a people, because homosexuality is totally unimortant -- like eyecolor. 
3) Gays cannot procreate themeselves, your nation will die out in one generation?
4) All the land is already belonging to somebody, there is no free place left anymore for a new country.
5) Will you persecute straights who lived in this place before you, like Israelis did with Palestinians? This will increase homophobia worldwide, see that Israel is the most-hated nation in the world! People will hate us because of you!!
6) When a Gay Nation will be created, straights will put a bomb to this place, or they will come and bash us there.
7) Gays will produce children whom will be 90% straight, your nation will turn straight in 3 generations.
8) Isn't it better to fight for equality for everybody instead? Gays are not the only ones discriminated against!

1) Of course you are not "only gay" -- nobody is. A "people" is always composed from very different individuals, stupid and smart, nice and hideous -- but they still have major interests and needs in common, and they better address these needs. Ghetto? With this logic, Poland is nothing else than a large "Polish Ghetto," Germany is a large "German Ghetto," and Japan is a "Japanese Ghetto?" We are aiming for a nation-state, not for a ghetto isolated from the rest of the humanity.
2) People are not being killed for their eyecolor, but people are being killed for being gay. The Holy Books of 3 major monoteistic religions clearly state that homosexuals are an abomination to Giod and shall be killed -- a very distinguished token to define a people, for me.
3) Straights make our gay babies for us in sufficient numbers, the population of the Gay State shall be maintained by immigration.
4) The land can be bought, leased or otherwise change the owner -- this happens rather often in history.
5) Israel is Israel, and Gay Nation is Gay Nation. Though we have a similiar history of persecution, the analogy to the conflict-loaded situation in Palestina is very strained. We do not want to forcibly evict anyone, we will buy them out if necessary.
6) Every country must defend itself, the Gay State will need military. Fags with machine guns and tanks don't get bashed so easily.
7) There is no necessity that children automatically will become citizens. Their biological parents being emigrants, these children may apply for other citizenship status.
8) This is not a "either-or" question. The global fight for a Gay rights and creation of a State for Gay Refugees do not contradict eachother -- it's because there will be ALWAYS persecuting countries. The world gives no justified hopes that human nature turned significantly better in the last 2000 years, there is no reason to assume our recent achievements will last forever. Just listen to the monoteistic religious leaders, and you will understand. 

I must say that in Italy most people (even gay people) have no idea of what "gay nationalism" is. People often answer about gay ghettos (gay bars, gay discos, gay pride etc.): -have you ever seen a "black pride"? Or a "muslim pride"? Or discos only for blaks and muslims?- Well, in Italy we'e got a "Family day" against "Gay pride" to "fight against the people who wants to destroy the natural society through innatural couples"! Such Family day has been helepd econonmically by teh CEI (Italian Conference of Bishops) and the Holy See.

A gay nations, it's very hard to realize today if we ask a place and not an "extraterritorial nation"... Vatican docet. The Holy See is structured like a true nation but her territory is not significative. Look how they work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_See.
The main organisms are set in Vatican city, then there are manies headquarters in every nation. Why don't use in a smarter way strategies and instruments they used to persecute gay people? A gay man or woman could choose to have "gay nationality" even continuing to live in his/her original country and have full access to "gay national services" in the headquaters of the nation they live... receive help, assitance etc. It would be mainly a diplomacy job so:

1) Being gay AND safe with fully recognized rights would not means move from an homeland and part of the society we belong to. Even who would rexist to the idea of a "gay nation" for such reasons could choose to accept it.
2) Maybe gays are not people for genetically reasons but we have a different way to interact with world and society.
3) Techniques allow us to have children through surrogacy... what the problem is? We an grow our children maybe they wouldn't obtain a gay citizenship if thei're straight. I don't think it would be a problem for them and even for families of gay people who are interested only in keeping tehir son or daughter close to them and see him/her happy.
4-5) Israel is Israel, it's born for a real need and built over a religious pretence. We can find another way to affirm a gay nation. Manies little pieces of lands in manies countries are not like a big piece of land in a single country.
6) To attak a gay nation allocated in manies countries is very very very hard... it could be made only by a worldly agreement between every single nation... it would be possible but in that circumstance we would however be swept away.
7) See n3.
8) Let us choose the best way to fight for our rights, without dening the rights of other people.

Is silly what i say?
Pax venetiana vobis, amici. By the way, i'm not the guy in the pic.

I'm veneto (Italy) i study at university of Padua ancient languages (greek, latin) and literature. I'm panteist and indepentist (www.pnveneto.org).

Athrael

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In first line, it's our own folks who must be educated to love other Gay people. When we regain the self-esteem bitterly missed by many of our likes, much of the evil would be remedied. A persecuted, but proud minority is much better off than a self-loathing, unsolidary crowd which is not persecuted. Thus, "Love thy people" shall be our First Commandment.
 :+

I should use the quote buttons more often.

My comment was directed at Viziers:

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If any of these erroneous notions is actually even remotely common among str8s, we have so much work to do! Reeducation of these idiots alone will take several generations...

I assumed that he meant the straight world.

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Mogul

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It is wrong of us to assume we can educate and change them. We can't.  Face that reality and move on. IT would be too great and expenditure of resources and time.

In first line, it's our own folks who must be educated to love other Gay people. When we regain the self-esteem bitterly missed by many of our likes, much of the evil would be remedied. A persecuted, but proud minority is much better off than a self-loathing, unsolidary crowd which is not persecuted. Thus, "Love thy people" shall be our First Commandment.
 :+
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Athrael

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On #7, the most obvious fact which vexes me to the point of steam coming out of my ears is the stupidity of assuming that today's Gays are the last; we are a finite supply and  somehow, once we are all "gone," there will be no more of us. So if, in three generations, as the argument goes, we all "turn" due to our obviously massive output of str8 children (despite the missing uteri in most of us) and despite the fact that proof is piling up every day that homosexuality is in fact not an "aberration," but rather just another aspect of nature, where do these people come up with this crap?

Do some str8s seriously believe that:

1. In a Gay homeland we will all f&%k everything that moves, which will give rise to this huge surge in str8 offspring?
2. We all just "cropped up" in the last 100 years or so, there were no gays beforehand?
3. We are the last of the line - there are no more once we are gone?

If any of these erroneous notions is actually even remotely common among str8s, we have so much work to do! Reeducation of these idiots alone will take several generations... so if you are looking for a quick "fix" here or have joined us thinking you can count on moving to a gay country before long, I'd say, think again.  8((

Actually yes, these myths are commonly believed - along with (but by not all means limited too): Lesbians work on cars, Lesbians are all fat, have short hair cuts and deep voices: Gay males are wimpy, lisping and only know how to cut hair. Gays (All) can not possibly love one another to form a relationship of any length, all gay males are constantly having sex, all gays are going to get HIV, HIV/AIDS is a gay only disease, Johnathan and David were straight, Ruth was Straight (Biblical personalities), and so on and so forth.

Half of the problem is that some of our group do portray these stereo types - unfortunately for us they are the most out and about and open as can be and are ALWAYS the groups that the media focuses their cameras on during Gay Pride Parades.

The Second half of the problem is that when real education is offered on who and what we are when it comes to the GLBT the straights put fingers in ears and go "la, la, la I can't hear you" preferring to keep us as weird as possible to make it easier for them to deny us rights, to hate us, to what ever it is that they want to do to us.

We can not educate the unwilling. Might as well teach pigs to fly - that will happen far far sooner than teaching the straight world any facts about us other than the ones they choose to listen to. Even when presented with research and proofs they still refuse to listen, refuse to learn, refuse out and out willingly refuse to chance their opinion.

It is wrong of us to assume we can educate and change them. We can't.  Face that reality and move on. IT would be too great and expenditure of resources and time.

Actually we do need a quick moving on, the quicker the better.
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Vizier

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On #7, the most obvious fact which vexes me to the point of steam coming out of my ears is the stupidity of assuming that today's Gays are the last; we are a finite supply and  somehow, once we are all "gone," there will be no more of us. So if, in three generations, as the argument goes, we all "turn" due to our obviously massive output of str8 children (despite the missing uteri in most of us) and despite the fact that proof is piling up every day that homosexuality is in fact not an "aberration," but rather just another aspect of nature, where do these people come up with this crap?

Do some str8s seriously believe that:

1. In a Gay homeland we will all f&%k everything that moves, which will give rise to this huge surge in str8 offspring?
2. We all just "cropped up" in the last 100 years or so, there were no gays beforehand?
3. We are the last of the line - there are no more once we are gone?

If any of these erroneous notions is actually even remotely common among str8s, we have so much work to do! Reeducation of these idiots alone will take several generations... so if you are looking for a quick "fix" here or have joined us thinking you can count on moving to a gay country before long, I'd say, think again.  8((
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Mogul

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Ah, friend Mykel just has managed to insert three of the usual prejudices into his first short reply:

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Surely you jest! [..] If your little separatist fantasy pays for itself and it's on private property, perhaps you can make a case for it.

=> Doesn't take the idea seriously, pushing you into the playchild corner.

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You should know by now that I'd vehemently condemn such a mockery of secular, integrated Democracy, just as I do a Jewish Israel. Of course, I am inclined to let the Neocons who run Israel do what they will, so long as it's on their dime and not mine, nor any non-Jew's.

=> He wasn't asked about Israel, but he unconsciously slides into airing his views on Zionism and Israel. Interestingly, the 6 millions of dead European Jews never enter such discussions -- despite the fact that most of them probably could be saved if Israel came into existence some 20 years earlier.

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As a gay man, too, however, I don't think it will help the Movement.

=> This is the usual notion that resistance to assimilationists' efforts is somehow damaging to the "fight for equality". Not a single one of them would feel offended by Gays fleeing to US and Europe (and being deported), but Gays fleeing to the Gay State would behave "counterproductive" and "damage the Movement"...

One thing wich I think is important in these up-hill battles is the fact that ideas have certain power of their own, even if this is not so obvious at first. Those who are fiercefully rejecting the idea of a Gay State, even the idea of Gays being a people as such -- all those folks can not change their minds back into total innocence. Once they have the idea in their minds, it does not go away. With time their attitudes will likely change more in favour of the Gay State, especially when there will be some evidence of persecuted Gay individuals being really rescued from this or other country. Methinks, one huge problem is actually that many of our fellow Gay folks in the West somehow manage to exclude every thought of their less happy brethreigns from their minds. Jumping into their faces with some uncomfortable truth is often perceived with indignation, but it also makes them think, this much is sure.

Based on the little data I have now I would judge the waters to be very skeptical of a Gay Nation.  Instead of having the resource of a majority of the GLBT community I suspect we would only have a mere fraction to work with.

The more people know about the idea, the more suitable individuals will become interested. The slow ones will still have the chance to further develope their views, though. Thus, the more people get informed, the better. We are, of course, in charge of presenting something really substantial to the sceptics. Providing sound replies to their recurrent objections (they are really not more than 10) is among them.

The one objection to the idea of a Gay state that I cannot overcome is one of the ones I hear the most often: "I could never live with just gay people." Whatever can you say to that? You can do what you can do and you cannot do what you cannot. It bothers me a great deal though what this objection seems to really mean -- that a great many Gay people are so profoundly homophobic that they cannot bear the company of their own kind for any length of time.

Yes, this particular objection -- sometimes expressed even by some of the "gay activists" -- is so profoundly disheartening that by times I could tear my hairs from my head from despair over some Gay folks. The only way to deal with it is to reply in making them clear that they are, in their heart, still ugly little homophobes. Self-hatred does not go away by itself, it must be purged -- if necessary, with a couple of unkind, but clear words. It is a friend's service, after all, to liberate a Gay person from homophobic attitudes.

The piece of madness that most sets my teeth on edge is the idea that any proposal for a gay state must necessarily be large -- too large to be reasonably negotiated. After all, there are quite likely 246,000,000 Gays in the world. Were ALL the Gay people to move to a gay state, it would be (if I remember correctly) the fourth most populous nation on Earth.

The genuine nations of North and South America and Australia all started with hords of emigrants (and convicted criminals) who set to new shores in a hope of a better life, taking away territories from other genuine peoples who owned the territories. Nothing of the like is intended for the Gay people - though it would be possible, if Gays were as reckless as the straights often are. No, we wouldl agree to take a decently small area suitable to accomodate a densely buil City-State -- plus the political network including the communities in diaspora. The genuine Republic of San Marino was formed by Christian refugees hundreds of years ago, in our times there is a semi-autonomous monk republic in Greece (Athos), and last not least there is the Vatican. I also fail to see how the existence of the Order of Malta has damaged the Christian movement -- on contrary, I am inclined to acknowledge that this entity has done much good to the Christians and to humanity at large.

Gay nationalism does not, I think, have anything to do with the sort of class struggles dreamed up by the Marxists and their ilk.

Though there are many Gays who indeed are heavily involved into Marxism and all sort of other more or less sensible ideologies, they do so at their own expense. Gay Nationalism as such is a movement of its own merit -- a one-issue movement indeed. This does not mean that questions of social justice, clean environment and responsible economy are of no importance to Gay Nationalists. They are important and discussion should be encouraged on such issues -- as long as these issues are put into the context of Gay Nationalism. Discussion about the role of social justice in a Gay society are somewhat different from discussions about how the Gay people can serve the global promotion of this or other ideology.
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin

Feral

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Feral, you are preaching to the choir here.

I realize that, of course, and I apologize. I get all overcome at times by the shear volume of the nonsense.

The one objection to the idea of a Gay state that I cannot overcome is one of the ones I hear the most often: "I could never live with just gay people." Whatever can you say to that? You can do what you can do and you cannot do what you cannot. It bothers me a great deal though what this objection seems to really mean -- that a great many Gay people are so profoundly homophobic that they cannot bear the company of their own kind for any length of time.

The piece of madness that most sets my teeth on edge is the idea that any proposal for a gay state must necessarily be large -- too large to be reasonably negotiated. After all, there are quite likely 246,000,000 Gays in the world. Were ALL the Gay people to move to a gay state, it would be (if I remember correctly) the fourth most populous nation on Earth.

Of course ALL Gay people will never do anything. This is to be quickly understood.

I must admit that it's been a while since I've seen this old chestnut: "the fallacy of Zionism was the notion that no matter what the Jews did or did not do, they would "never" be accepted by the (so called) gentile nations". I fail to see in what way this notion is a fallacy -- it seems true enough on both counts. The Jews have never been accepted and this lack of acceptance is entirely independent of what the Jews might do or might not do. The situation Gays are in is quite similar. I hesitate to say it is the same because I have no real way to compare the two experiences. We are hated, and it has nothing to do with anything but our existence.

Gay nationalism does not, I think, have anything to do with the sort of class struggles dreamed up by the Marxists and their ilk. That's OK. I have little taste for what they dream up for us.
Stonewall was a riot.

Athrael

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Feral, you are preaching to the choir here.

Logic is rarely understood by most people, even more rare is the application thereof.  Everything you point out is only logical.

I revised my question, making it in more detail at another forum: http://www.debatebothsides.com/showthread.php?p=794506#post794506 I took pains to describe the application there of for those less fortunates who face day to day persecution and potential death. Went so far as to expound on humanitarian good, health care, education, blah.

And still the same wall.

I targeted Mykel for the question for two reasons. 1. He is known on that forum as an out gay. 2. He is very militant when it comes to hetero/homo affairs and should, if he stays true to his nature, view such a move as a positive for the oppressed.

Remarkably enough he didn't take kindly to the question.

I will continue conducting this experiment, finding different ways to word it and explain it to see if there is a combination that would, for at least the GLBT community, be palpable.

Based on the little data I have now I would judge the waters to be very skeptical of a Gay Nation.  Instead of having the resource of a majority of the GLBT community I suspect we would only have a mere fraction to work with.

However I have no doubt that once such a project is up and running and demonstrates that it is possible that more n the GLBT will see it as a logical alternative than to butt heads against the wall.

I note that history demonstrates that revolutions are usually started by one or a few individuals and the rest jump on the bandwagon when that revolution starts making progress. To Quote Samuel Clemens:

"In the beginning of a change the patriot is
a scarce man and brave, and hated and scorned.
When his cause succeeds, the timid join him
for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
According to obituary notices, a mean and useless citizen never dies.

Feral

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Perhaps the nature of my question the way it was worded is offensive? Or is the mere thought of a "Gay Nation" defined as concentration camp?

The question seems quite straight-forward and innocuous to me. The only offence to be found in it would be with the word 'gay.' The very idea that more than a handful of Gay people might do anything at all is abhorrent to a number of people. While it hardly surprises me when straights are of this view (after all, their thoughts rarely stray far from genocide -- the mere matter of our existence is offensive to them), I am surprised at how many Gay people share this view.

This idea that separatism is some kind of prison or concentration camp is really quite absurd. The same line of reasoning would define my own home as a cell. I like my house the way it is, thank-you very much. It is true that I quite heartlessly exclude all manner of people from it, and it's just as true that I do so as a matter of routine. The idea that one country would be a "prison camp" while (for some odd and unexplained reason) all other countries are not is also absurd. Take one example -- the US. If anything, the populace of the remainder of the world is (to a greater or lesser extent, depending on where they live) is displeased with how little the US mimics one. After all, its citizens travel quite freely around the globe, often wearing uniforms and carrying guns. Do Canadians feel unjustly excluded from the political debate in the US? I had not heard that they did, or that they were clamoring for the vote. Never mind that the outcome of the forthcoming elections are a matter of at least some small concern to them. Alas, their opinions will not be solicited, nor will they be much heeded should they be offered. Yes, those Americans surely have locked themselves away in some sort of concentration camp.

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1) I am not only gay, I don't want to move to the gay ghetto and isolate myself from the mankind.

Fine, then do not. You shall be isolated instead from your fellows. This refusal of what is termed the "ghetto mentality" is telling. It's also patently suicidal. But... we are all as free as we will allow ourselves to be. Go -- dissolve into something you are not. It is one of the tidier ways of killing yourself.

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2) Gays are not a people, because homosexuality is totally unimortant -- like eyecolor.

What can I say? The statement is in error.

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3) Gays cannot procreate themeselves, your nation will die out in one generation?

And yet we are procreated. Have these people never been exposed to this process? Is the mystery of birth that inscrutable? We are not talking about a colony on Mars. I know where little baby gays come from. I do not pretend that they come from Gays themselves (as much as the straight people seem to think that it is some sort of contagious malady). Many countries whip themselves up into histrionic lathers over the issue of immigration and some bizarre idea that it will "dilute" their native population. A Gay nation would be quite the opposite. Immigration is good. Gay people will continue to be produced in the ancient fashion that they always have. I propose that, thereafter, they move. It's not that difficult a proposition. Put your things in boxes and move.

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4) All the land is already belonging to somebody, there is no free place left anymore for a new country.

My patience is exhausted with this particular species of naivete. Apparently the concept of Real Estate eludes a great many people. Land is eternal, ownership is not. Real Estate changes hands many times and in many ways.

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5) Will you persecute straights who lived in this place before you, like Israelis did with Palestinians? This will increase homophobia worldwide, see that Israel is the most-hated nation in the world! People will hate us because of you!!

Well, I do not propose to invite any of them. They would certainly be welcome to leave. Additionally, there is an odd notion that in addition to being 'owned,' all land is occupied and inhabited. This is most assuredly not true. There are many places on Earth where one can travel for miles upon miles without encountering even one other human being.

If "persecute" means to subject the straights to the same laws as the Gays, to oblige them to live peaceably with Gays, to restrain them from behaving in an evil manner (especially the long-standing, habitual evil behavior toward Gays that seems almost to be bred into their bone), then yes... I propose to persecute them quite cruelly. The laws of the Gay state should apply equally to all within its jurisdiction.


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6) When a Gay Nation will be created, straights will put a bomb to this place, or they will come and bash us there.

If straights really hate the Gay people that much, then what is this mad insistence on living within the bosom of these creatures? Those who make this claim will usually state just as authoritatively that they feel quite safe in their current countries.

Yes, one will often hear remarks from individual straights to this effect (usually in regards to a Pride Parade). In the US, one can hear the suggestion to drop bombs on any number of people. The thing to remember is that the people making these remarks do not possess bombs... they only possess the word 'bomb' and they get some sad little thrill out of imagining actually having the real thing. The governments that, in material reality, are possessed of bombs are fully cognizant of the expense of these items, as well as the expense of transporting them through space and detonating them. Countries go to war fairly frequently but by no means do they do so often. Foreign policy is not quite the same thing as the game "Risk."

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7) Gays will produce children whom will be 90% straight, your nation will turn straight in 3 generations.

Yes, I know. My husband and I plan to breed like rabbits... just as soon as we finish arguing over which of us will carry the children. As a rule, Gay men have no children (something about lacking a uterus).

Certainly the basic apparatus of spawning is within the grasp of the Gay people in general. Certainly some of them will exercise their freedom to do so. Why would I or anyone else wish to stop them? One would have to provide birth statistics (data which does not exist) in order to compare them to the immigration statistics (data which also does not exist) before one could sensibly make such claims. This is heterocentric thinking at its worst. Gays are not straight. They are not like straights. They do not do a number of things that straight people do as a matter of course. Whining about immigration would be one of those things, I think. Any number of western countries currently possess doomsayers who pontificate about their own native straight population's inability to spawn sufficient numbers of native-born people to counteract quite limited immigration.  I hardly imagine that the straight offspring of Gay citizens would be inherently more prolific than their counterparts in Canada, Russia, or Poland.

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8) Isn't it better to fight for equality for everybody instead? Gays are not the only ones discriminated against!

Nope.
Stonewall was a riot.

Athrael

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Obviously "gay" is the loaded word. 

there are expectations and ideologies already in place which make the notion of anything "gay" either set to failure or predetermined to be one thing or another.

the word Gay is the problem - Gay and all of its permutations (homo, homosexual, queer, etc) is a "bad" word to use.

I can sell "organic fertilizer" for lawns far easier than "horseshit", people shy from the latter, but all but jump at the chance of anything that sounds "green".

According to obituary notices, a mean and useless citizen never dies.

Mogul

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Ah, this pesky question! Some curious minds were also wanting to know how the idea of a "Gay Nation" (likewise "Gay Homeland") would be received by our folks. Whatever the exact wording of the question was, the reactions were roughly the same: only few were supportive in principle, whereas most replies were negative, usually withouth much consideration of the idea.

Some examples of such discussions are here:

http://www.outminds.com/common/forum_message.cfm?mid=280185
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AjWs8WAHiNO6rCZsTMMOHffty6IX?qid=1006042326243
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060801133841AAeCNAO
http://www.politicsforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=73005 (The idea with a "colony in South Lebanon" is purely invented, we never suggested something like this, but "Donald" probably meant it well, from his perspective.)

The usual arguments against the idea of a Gay Nation are the following:

1) I am not only gay, I don't want to move to the gay ghetto and isolate myself from the mankind.
2) Gays are not a people, because homosexuality is totally unimortant -- like eyecolor. 
3) Gays cannot procreate themeselves, your nation will die out in one generation?
4) All the land is already belonging to somebody, there is no free place left anymore for a new country.
5) Will you persecute straights who lived in this place before you, like Israelis did with Palestinians? This will increase homophobia worldwide, see that Israel is the most-hated nation in the world! People will hate us because of you!!
6) When a Gay Nation will be created, straights will put a bomb to this place, or they will come and bash us there.
7) Gays will produce children whom will be 90% straight, your nation will turn straight in 3 generations.
8) Isn't it better to fight for equality for everybody instead? Gays are not the only ones discriminated against!

This is not a totally unexpected response, since we are talking of a relatively NEW idea. Humans are not particularly fond of new ideas, especialy not when the ideas are suited to change their worldview. Remember, some 500 years ago Copernicus suggested that the Earth rotates around the Sun (and not the other way), and yet 100 years later Galileo Galilei was very close to be burnt at the stake for this heretic notion. I do not know how long people (even scholars) resisted such a simple idea that the Earth is not flat, not to mention the frivole notion of quantum mechanics. Overcoming old ideology is never easy (evolution theory is still struggling for full acceptance, in some places).

The questions are not at all stupid, though most of them are founding on simple logical mistakes in thinking (straight children is the only reasonable "problem"). My answers usually are:

1) Of course you are not "only gay" -- nobody is. A "people" is always composed from very different individuals, stupid and smart, nice and hideous -- but they still have major interests and needs in common, and they better address these needs. Ghetto? With this logic, Poland is nothing else than a large "Polish Ghetto," Germany is a large "German Ghetto," and Japan is a "Japanese Ghetto?" We are aiming for a nation-state, not for a ghetto isolated from the rest of the humanity.
2) People are not being killed for their eyecolor, but people are being killed for being gay. The Holy Books of 3 major monoteistic religions clearly state that homosexuals are an abomination to Giod and shall be killed -- a very distinguished token to define a people, for me.
3) Straights make our gay babies for us in sufficient numbers, the population of the Gay State shall be maintained by immigration.
4) The land can be bought, leased or otherwise change the owner -- this happens rather often in history.
5) Israel is Israel, and Gay Nation is Gay Nation. Though we have a similiar history of persecution, the analogy to the conflict-loaded situation in Palestina is very strained. We do not want to forcibly evict anyone, we will buy them out if necessary.
6) Every country must defend itself, the Gay State will need military. Fags with machine guns and tanks don't get bashed so easily.
7) There is no necessity that children automatically will become citizens. Their biological parents being emigrants, these children may apply for other citizenship status.
8) This is not a "either-or" question. The global fight for a Gay rights and creation of a State for Gay Refugees do not contradict eachother -- it's because there will be ALWAYS persecuting countries. The world gives no justified hopes that human nature turned significantly better in the last 2000 years, there is no reason to assume our recent achievements will last forever. Just listen to the monoteistic religious leaders, and you will understand.

We should not be afraid of people reacting in a negative way to our attempts to explain our idea to them. Most people were raised to believe lots of stuff which is false but still a part of the "common sense." A new idea takes its time to overcome mental barriers of traditional views. The perception of a "people" and a "nation" as something absolute and God-given is among such ideological ballast, along with unreflected nationalistic state of mind in favour of the "German", "American" or "Canadian" nationality. Never mind, not a few of the initial sceptics became ferwent believers once they opened their mind to a serious, prejudice-free discussion. All we have to do is to remain steady in our knowledge of what is right, and to continue dialogue with those who are open-minded in principle. We don't need to convince everybody.

The 1 in 6 is a totally agreeable proportion, for a good beginning. With many individuals whom I have spoken to so far about the idea of a Gay State, I made the observation that there are basically 4 phases of their perception of this idea.

Phase one: Total Denyial (The idea appears to be insane, the person representing it must be a crackpot).
Phase two: Sceptical examination (Listening to arguments, presenting one's objections -- usually the 8 mentioned above).
Phase three: Reality Check (Accepting the necessity of a Gay Homeland, but doubting its feasibility).
Phase four: Unconditional Support (Able to see the vision, and willing to work towards it).

Some Gays run away and check you into the "crackpot" category for the end of time - this is a convenient way to deal with uncomfortable ideas. Most Gays will start with a Total Denyal, and hang up on the Reality Check stage. They would wish such a country for Gays existed, but they think it would be not possible to establish anyway. A distant dream -- beatifull, but not realistic. Few individuals, finally, will recognize that to make things possible, some action is required. These folks are those who will participate.

Now, there are 2 ways to increase numbers of informed "believers" - to simply increase the numbers of recepients of the message, or to make the message more convincing. Experience tells me that in a personal contact it is much easier to convert a sceptic, but as a matter of fact there are thousands of individuals out there who were ferwent supporters of the idea, if they only had heard about it. 

It would appear that the number one conclusion of such a question is that there is an intent to build a concentration camp for gays.  Even with the inclusion of Constitution, Bill of Rights. [..] Perhaps the nature of my question the way it was worded is offensive? Or is the mere thought of a "Gay Nation" defined as concentration camp?

Many Gays (and even more straights) think that Gay people somehow are not able to live without straight people, much lesser to establish a functioning State. After all, we are the wrist-limp faggots who never get anything done without real man's supervision and direction. This is what Feral terms "The straight Man Desease": a deeply inherited disbelief into one's own skills and qualities to the degree of self-contempt. The notion of Gay inability for self-administration takes by time bizarre forms: some would pretend that Gays are all interior designers, hair dressers and acters, and just who would make our bread and build our streets and houses? No need to mention that the Gay people has all of the necessary skilled professionals to maintain a functioning economy.

Of course there is no way to poll all the people, from both sides of the issue however I believe we can get a cross section of thought from neutral questions which are left to interpretation.

Yep, but a more detailed survey would be required, with gays "from the street". Such survey would serve 2 purposes: analize the state of mind of Gay individuals initially, and plant the interest for the Gay State into their minds.
« Last Edit: Mon, May 07, 2007, 08:15 by Mogul »
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin

Athrael

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http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/289921 At answer-bag, under my "straight" orientation (makes for some interesting changes in how people treat you on depending on how you claim your orientation;)) I asked a rather simple question:

Let's Create a Gay Nation: What would compose a Gay Nation's Politics, Social Systems, Economy, Constitution, Bill of Rights, etc. How do you think it would operate? This Thread is for serious consideration only. Thanks

The result?  Mostly Negative response. It appears that the notion of a Gay Nation is abhorrent to people in one way or another. Out of the six replies received only one individual stepped outside of the box, dared to even contemplate the notion, added a bit or two on how and where - the rest shut down and acted like I said "Let's round up the Gays into Concentration Camps!"

It would appear that the number one conclusion of such a question is that there is an intent to build a concentration camp for gays.  Even with the inclusion of Constitution, Bill of Rights.

On another forum where it is known that I am gay, the feature of most interest appears to be a thought that bigotry in the form of anti-straight bills would be the "natural conclusion" of the formation of a gay state. Three answers thus far, from people who "know me" in that I have posted there since the last century ;) Thus not really a "fair" or unbiased place to "poll" the population.

Of course there is no way to poll all the people, from both sides of the issue however I believe we can get a cross section of thought from neutral questions which are left to interpretation.

Perhaps the nature of my question the way it was worded is offensive? Or is the mere thought of a "Gay Nation" defined as concentration camp?

According to obituary notices, a mean and useless citizen never dies.
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