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An experiment to see how well the notion of a Gay nation would be taken

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Adriano_tv83:

--- Quote from: Mogul on Mon, May 07, 2007, 08:12 ---Ah, this pesky question! Some curious minds were also wanting to know how the idea of a "Gay Nation" (likewise "Gay Homeland") would be received by our folks. Whatever the exact wording of the question was, the reactions were roughly the same: only few were supportive in principle, whereas most replies were negative, usually withouth much consideration of the idea.
The usual arguments against the idea of a Gay Nation are the following:

1) I am not only gay, I don't want to move to the gay ghetto and isolate myself from the mankind.
2) Gays are not a people, because homosexuality is totally unimortant -- like eyecolor. 
3) Gays cannot procreate themeselves, your nation will die out in one generation?
4) All the land is already belonging to somebody, there is no free place left anymore for a new country.
5) Will you persecute straights who lived in this place before you, like Israelis did with Palestinians? This will increase homophobia worldwide, see that Israel is the most-hated nation in the world! People will hate us because of you!!
6) When a Gay Nation will be created, straights will put a bomb to this place, or they will come and bash us there.
7) Gays will produce children whom will be 90% straight, your nation will turn straight in 3 generations.
8) Isn't it better to fight for equality for everybody instead? Gays are not the only ones discriminated against!

1) Of course you are not "only gay" -- nobody is. A "people" is always composed from very different individuals, stupid and smart, nice and hideous -- but they still have major interests and needs in common, and they better address these needs. Ghetto? With this logic, Poland is nothing else than a large "Polish Ghetto," Germany is a large "German Ghetto," and Japan is a "Japanese Ghetto?" We are aiming for a nation-state, not for a ghetto isolated from the rest of the humanity.
2) People are not being killed for their eyecolor, but people are being killed for being gay. The Holy Books of 3 major monoteistic religions clearly state that homosexuals are an abomination to Giod and shall be killed -- a very distinguished token to define a people, for me.
3) Straights make our gay babies for us in sufficient numbers, the population of the Gay State shall be maintained by immigration.
4) The land can be bought, leased or otherwise change the owner -- this happens rather often in history.
5) Israel is Israel, and Gay Nation is Gay Nation. Though we have a similiar history of persecution, the analogy to the conflict-loaded situation in Palestina is very strained. We do not want to forcibly evict anyone, we will buy them out if necessary.
6) Every country must defend itself, the Gay State will need military. Fags with machine guns and tanks don't get bashed so easily.
7) There is no necessity that children automatically will become citizens. Their biological parents being emigrants, these children may apply for other citizenship status.
8) This is not a "either-or" question. The global fight for a Gay rights and creation of a State for Gay Refugees do not contradict eachother -- it's because there will be ALWAYS persecuting countries. The world gives no justified hopes that human nature turned significantly better in the last 2000 years, there is no reason to assume our recent achievements will last forever. Just listen to the monoteistic religious leaders, and you will understand. 

--- End quote ---

I must say that in Italy most people (even gay people) have no idea of what "gay nationalism" is. People often answer about gay ghettos (gay bars, gay discos, gay pride etc.): -have you ever seen a "black pride"? Or a "muslim pride"? Or discos only for blaks and muslims?- Well, in Italy we'e got a "Family day" against "Gay pride" to "fight against the people who wants to destroy the natural society through innatural couples"! Such Family day has been helepd econonmically by teh CEI (Italian Conference of Bishops) and the Holy See.

A gay nations, it's very hard to realize today if we ask a place and not an "extraterritorial nation"... Vatican docet. The Holy See is structured like a true nation but her territory is not significative. Look how they work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_See.
The main organisms are set in Vatican city, then there are manies headquarters in every nation. Why don't use in a smarter way strategies and instruments they used to persecute gay people? A gay man or woman could choose to have "gay nationality" even continuing to live in his/her original country and have full access to "gay national services" in the headquaters of the nation they live... receive help, assitance etc. It would be mainly a diplomacy job so:

1) Being gay AND safe with fully recognized rights would not means move from an homeland and part of the society we belong to. Even who would rexist to the idea of a "gay nation" for such reasons could choose to accept it.
2) Maybe gays are not people for genetically reasons but we have a different way to interact with world and society.
3) Techniques allow us to have children through surrogacy... what the problem is? We an grow our children maybe they wouldn't obtain a gay citizenship if thei're straight. I don't think it would be a problem for them and even for families of gay people who are interested only in keeping tehir son or daughter close to them and see him/her happy.
4-5) Israel is Israel, it's born for a real need and built over a religious pretence. We can find another way to affirm a gay nation. Manies little pieces of lands in manies countries are not like a big piece of land in a single country.
6) To attak a gay nation allocated in manies countries is very very very hard... it could be made only by a worldly agreement between every single nation... it would be possible but in that circumstance we would however be swept away.
7) See n3.
8) Let us choose the best way to fight for our rights, without dening the rights of other people.

Is silly what i say?

Athrael:

--- Quote from: Mogul on Sat, May 12, 2007, 04:15 ---In first line, it's our own folks who must be educated to love other Gay people. When we regain the self-esteem bitterly missed by many of our likes, much of the evil would be remedied. A persecuted, but proud minority is much better off than a self-loathing, unsolidary crowd which is not persecuted. Thus, "Love thy people" shall be our First Commandment.
 :+

--- End quote ---

I should use the quote buttons more often.

My comment was directed at Viziers:


--- Quote ---If any of these erroneous notions is actually even remotely common among str8s, we have so much work to do! Reeducation of these idiots alone will take several generations...
--- End quote ---

I assumed that he meant the straight world.

Mogul:

--- Quote from: Athrael on Fri, May 11, 2007, 22:19 ---It is wrong of us to assume we can educate and change them. We can't.  Face that reality and move on. IT would be too great and expenditure of resources and time.
--- End quote ---

In first line, it's our own folks who must be educated to love other Gay people. When we regain the self-esteem bitterly missed by many of our likes, much of the evil would be remedied. A persecuted, but proud minority is much better off than a self-loathing, unsolidary crowd which is not persecuted. Thus, "Love thy people" shall be our First Commandment.
 :+

Athrael:

--- Quote from: Vizier on Fri, May 11, 2007, 11:15 ---On #7, the most obvious fact which vexes me to the point of steam coming out of my ears is the stupidity of assuming that today's Gays are the last; we are a finite supply and  somehow, once we are all "gone," there will be no more of us. So if, in three generations, as the argument goes, we all "turn" due to our obviously massive output of str8 children (despite the missing uteri in most of us) and despite the fact that proof is piling up every day that homosexuality is in fact not an "aberration," but rather just another aspect of nature, where do these people come up with this crap?

Do some str8s seriously believe that:

1. In a Gay homeland we will all f&%k everything that moves, which will give rise to this huge surge in str8 offspring?
2. We all just "cropped up" in the last 100 years or so, there were no gays beforehand?
3. We are the last of the line - there are no more once we are gone?

If any of these erroneous notions is actually even remotely common among str8s, we have so much work to do! Reeducation of these idiots alone will take several generations... so if you are looking for a quick "fix" here or have joined us thinking you can count on moving to a gay country before long, I'd say, think again.  8((

--- End quote ---

Actually yes, these myths are commonly believed - along with (but by not all means limited too): Lesbians work on cars, Lesbians are all fat, have short hair cuts and deep voices: Gay males are wimpy, lisping and only know how to cut hair. Gays (All) can not possibly love one another to form a relationship of any length, all gay males are constantly having sex, all gays are going to get HIV, HIV/AIDS is a gay only disease, Johnathan and David were straight, Ruth was Straight (Biblical personalities), and so on and so forth.

Half of the problem is that some of our group do portray these stereo types - unfortunately for us they are the most out and about and open as can be and are ALWAYS the groups that the media focuses their cameras on during Gay Pride Parades.

The Second half of the problem is that when real education is offered on who and what we are when it comes to the GLBT the straights put fingers in ears and go "la, la, la I can't hear you" preferring to keep us as weird as possible to make it easier for them to deny us rights, to hate us, to what ever it is that they want to do to us.

We can not educate the unwilling. Might as well teach pigs to fly - that will happen far far sooner than teaching the straight world any facts about us other than the ones they choose to listen to. Even when presented with research and proofs they still refuse to listen, refuse to learn, refuse out and out willingly refuse to chance their opinion.

It is wrong of us to assume we can educate and change them. We can't.  Face that reality and move on. IT would be too great and expenditure of resources and time.

Actually we do need a quick moving on, the quicker the better.

Vizier:
On #7, the most obvious fact which vexes me to the point of steam coming out of my ears is the stupidity of assuming that today's Gays are the last; we are a finite supply and  somehow, once we are all "gone," there will be no more of us. So if, in three generations, as the argument goes, we all "turn" due to our obviously massive output of str8 children (despite the missing uteri in most of us) and despite the fact that proof is piling up every day that homosexuality is in fact not an "aberration," but rather just another aspect of nature, where do these people come up with this crap?

Do some str8s seriously believe that:

1. In a Gay homeland we will all f&%k everything that moves, which will give rise to this huge surge in str8 offspring?
2. We all just "cropped up" in the last 100 years or so, there were no gays beforehand?
3. We are the last of the line - there are no more once we are gone?

If any of these erroneous notions is actually even remotely common among str8s, we have so much work to do! Reeducation of these idiots alone will take several generations... so if you are looking for a quick "fix" here or have joined us thinking you can count on moving to a gay country before long, I'd say, think again.  8((

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