General Forum > Open Forum

An experiment to see how well the notion of a Gay nation would be taken

<< < (3/3)

Mogul:
Ah, this pesky question! Some curious minds were also wanting to know how the idea of a "Gay Nation" (likewise "Gay Homeland") would be received by our folks. Whatever the exact wording of the question was, the reactions were roughly the same: only few were supportive in principle, whereas most replies were negative, usually withouth much consideration of the idea.

Some examples of such discussions are here:

http://www.outminds.com/common/forum_message.cfm?mid=280185
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AjWs8WAHiNO6rCZsTMMOHffty6IX?qid=1006042326243
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060801133841AAeCNAO
http://www.politicsforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=73005 (The idea with a "colony in South Lebanon" is purely invented, we never suggested something like this, but "Donald" probably meant it well, from his perspective.)

The usual arguments against the idea of a Gay Nation are the following:

1) I am not only gay, I don't want to move to the gay ghetto and isolate myself from the mankind.
2) Gays are not a people, because homosexuality is totally unimortant -- like eyecolor. 
3) Gays cannot procreate themeselves, your nation will die out in one generation?
4) All the land is already belonging to somebody, there is no free place left anymore for a new country.
5) Will you persecute straights who lived in this place before you, like Israelis did with Palestinians? This will increase homophobia worldwide, see that Israel is the most-hated nation in the world! People will hate us because of you!!
6) When a Gay Nation will be created, straights will put a bomb to this place, or they will come and bash us there.
7) Gays will produce children whom will be 90% straight, your nation will turn straight in 3 generations.
8) Isn't it better to fight for equality for everybody instead? Gays are not the only ones discriminated against!

This is not a totally unexpected response, since we are talking of a relatively NEW idea. Humans are not particularly fond of new ideas, especialy not when the ideas are suited to change their worldview. Remember, some 500 years ago Copernicus suggested that the Earth rotates around the Sun (and not the other way), and yet 100 years later Galileo Galilei was very close to be burnt at the stake for this heretic notion. I do not know how long people (even scholars) resisted such a simple idea that the Earth is not flat, not to mention the frivole notion of quantum mechanics. Overcoming old ideology is never easy (evolution theory is still struggling for full acceptance, in some places).

The questions are not at all stupid, though most of them are founding on simple logical mistakes in thinking (straight children is the only reasonable "problem"). My answers usually are:

1) Of course you are not "only gay" -- nobody is. A "people" is always composed from very different individuals, stupid and smart, nice and hideous -- but they still have major interests and needs in common, and they better address these needs. Ghetto? With this logic, Poland is nothing else than a large "Polish Ghetto," Germany is a large "German Ghetto," and Japan is a "Japanese Ghetto?" We are aiming for a nation-state, not for a ghetto isolated from the rest of the humanity.
2) People are not being killed for their eyecolor, but people are being killed for being gay. The Holy Books of 3 major monoteistic religions clearly state that homosexuals are an abomination to Giod and shall be killed -- a very distinguished token to define a people, for me.
3) Straights make our gay babies for us in sufficient numbers, the population of the Gay State shall be maintained by immigration.
4) The land can be bought, leased or otherwise change the owner -- this happens rather often in history.
5) Israel is Israel, and Gay Nation is Gay Nation. Though we have a similiar history of persecution, the analogy to the conflict-loaded situation in Palestina is very strained. We do not want to forcibly evict anyone, we will buy them out if necessary.
6) Every country must defend itself, the Gay State will need military. Fags with machine guns and tanks don't get bashed so easily.
7) There is no necessity that children automatically will become citizens. Their biological parents being emigrants, these children may apply for other citizenship status.
8) This is not a "either-or" question. The global fight for a Gay rights and creation of a State for Gay Refugees do not contradict eachother -- it's because there will be ALWAYS persecuting countries. The world gives no justified hopes that human nature turned significantly better in the last 2000 years, there is no reason to assume our recent achievements will last forever. Just listen to the monoteistic religious leaders, and you will understand.

We should not be afraid of people reacting in a negative way to our attempts to explain our idea to them. Most people were raised to believe lots of stuff which is false but still a part of the "common sense." A new idea takes its time to overcome mental barriers of traditional views. The perception of a "people" and a "nation" as something absolute and God-given is among such ideological ballast, along with unreflected nationalistic state of mind in favour of the "German", "American" or "Canadian" nationality. Never mind, not a few of the initial sceptics became ferwent believers once they opened their mind to a serious, prejudice-free discussion. All we have to do is to remain steady in our knowledge of what is right, and to continue dialogue with those who are open-minded in principle. We don't need to convince everybody.

The 1 in 6 is a totally agreeable proportion, for a good beginning. With many individuals whom I have spoken to so far about the idea of a Gay State, I made the observation that there are basically 4 phases of their perception of this idea.

Phase one: Total Denyial (The idea appears to be insane, the person representing it must be a crackpot).
Phase two: Sceptical examination (Listening to arguments, presenting one's objections -- usually the 8 mentioned above).
Phase three: Reality Check (Accepting the necessity of a Gay Homeland, but doubting its feasibility).
Phase four: Unconditional Support (Able to see the vision, and willing to work towards it).

Some Gays run away and check you into the "crackpot" category for the end of time - this is a convenient way to deal with uncomfortable ideas. Most Gays will start with a Total Denyal, and hang up on the Reality Check stage. They would wish such a country for Gays existed, but they think it would be not possible to establish anyway. A distant dream -- beatifull, but not realistic. Few individuals, finally, will recognize that to make things possible, some action is required. These folks are those who will participate.

Now, there are 2 ways to increase numbers of informed "believers" - to simply increase the numbers of recepients of the message, or to make the message more convincing. Experience tells me that in a personal contact it is much easier to convert a sceptic, but as a matter of fact there are thousands of individuals out there who were ferwent supporters of the idea, if they only had heard about it. 


--- Quote from: Athrael on Sun, May 06, 2007, 23:03 ---It would appear that the number one conclusion of such a question is that there is an intent to build a concentration camp for gays.  Even with the inclusion of Constitution, Bill of Rights. [..] Perhaps the nature of my question the way it was worded is offensive? Or is the mere thought of a "Gay Nation" defined as concentration camp?
--- End quote ---

Many Gays (and even more straights) think that Gay people somehow are not able to live without straight people, much lesser to establish a functioning State. After all, we are the wrist-limp faggots who never get anything done without real man's supervision and direction. This is what Feral terms "The straight Man Desease": a deeply inherited disbelief into one's own skills and qualities to the degree of self-contempt. The notion of Gay inability for self-administration takes by time bizarre forms: some would pretend that Gays are all interior designers, hair dressers and acters, and just who would make our bread and build our streets and houses? No need to mention that the Gay people has all of the necessary skilled professionals to maintain a functioning economy.


--- Quote from: Athrael on Sun, May 06, 2007, 23:03 ---Of course there is no way to poll all the people, from both sides of the issue however I believe we can get a cross section of thought from neutral questions which are left to interpretation.
--- End quote ---

Yep, but a more detailed survey would be required, with gays "from the street". Such survey would serve 2 purposes: analize the state of mind of Gay individuals initially, and plant the interest for the Gay State into their minds.

Athrael:
http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/289921 At answer-bag, under my "straight" orientation (makes for some interesting changes in how people treat you on depending on how you claim your orientation;)) I asked a rather simple question:

Let's Create a Gay Nation: What would compose a Gay Nation's Politics, Social Systems, Economy, Constitution, Bill of Rights, etc. How do you think it would operate? This Thread is for serious consideration only. Thanks

The result?  Mostly Negative response. It appears that the notion of a Gay Nation is abhorrent to people in one way or another. Out of the six replies received only one individual stepped outside of the box, dared to even contemplate the notion, added a bit or two on how and where - the rest shut down and acted like I said "Let's round up the Gays into Concentration Camps!"

It would appear that the number one conclusion of such a question is that there is an intent to build a concentration camp for gays.  Even with the inclusion of Constitution, Bill of Rights.

On another forum where it is known that I am gay, the feature of most interest appears to be a thought that bigotry in the form of anti-straight bills would be the "natural conclusion" of the formation of a gay state. Three answers thus far, from people who "know me" in that I have posted there since the last century ;) Thus not really a "fair" or unbiased place to "poll" the population.

Of course there is no way to poll all the people, from both sides of the issue however I believe we can get a cross section of thought from neutral questions which are left to interpretation.

Perhaps the nature of my question the way it was worded is offensive? Or is the mere thought of a "Gay Nation" defined as concentration camp?

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[*] Previous page