GLR Forum

General Forum => Open Forum => Topic started by: K6 on Tue, Jan 17, 2006, 07:20

Title: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: K6 on Tue, Jan 17, 2006, 07:20
This is in continuation of the discussion mr.Zimmerman and myself have had recently by e-mail.

I am interested in the aspects of political separation and independence which can be implemented now.With independence,direct political association with non-gays - as if we were citizens of a same country - must cease.We can have alliances with non-gays,but only those who physically stand outside some area we have designed for the implementation of a concept of sovereignty.

Similarly,political contests and conflicts between non-gays aren`t our business anymore once we act independently and politically ourselves.Again,we
may play some game of balance of power with different non-gay groups,provided that they also are outside some area where we implement a concept of sovereignty.

K6
Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: Mogul on Wed, Jan 18, 2006, 00:01
[..] With independence,direct political association with non-gays - as if we were citizens of a same country - must cease.We can have alliances with non-gays,but only those who physically stand outside some area we have designed for the implementation of a concept of sovereignty. [..]

I strongly disagree! Why stop cooperation out of ideological motives and to deprive ourselves of the possibility to act in alliances? It would effectively damage our ability to influence politics of other countries - this can't be good for us. On countrary, gays and lesbians should be encouraged to actively participate in the political work in their countries and form alliances wherewher possible - laws and policies are being made by majorities. As there is a possibility of double citizenship, any particular "gay citizen" must have the possibility to engage him/herself in activities in the country he actually resides.

The situation changes, in my eyes, for those who will represent a souvereign gay entity in some official capacity - those persons must not be members of any other government, political party or alike political structures.
Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: K6 on Wed, Jan 18, 2006, 03:02
In a scenario and situation where no gay State exists,there can be no such category as official government representants of the gay interest.
Every gay is then an unofficial representant of that interest,because there exists no one else to take that representation in charge.The responsibilities which would have been the ones of government officials only then become the ones of every gay.And one of these responsabilities
consists in not acting as a denizen or as a political agent of some heterosexual dominated entity.

K6
Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: Mogul on Wed, Jan 18, 2006, 09:24
I am afraid I do not entirely share your comparison of our current situation with the situation of the Polish under German occupation - and this causes me certain difficulties to argue against yout theses. Certainly, such an analogy can be made for timeslaps/countries with the worst persecution of gays, but this analogie does not reflect current realities of gays living in more liberal countries.

It is surelly true that gays should not be members in oppressive organizations, e.g. (from my point of view) catholic church or conservative parties, as such organizstions are homophobic by their inner nature. But what's wrong with liberal parties, antifascist movements or simply a orchid growers club? Shall I cancell my membership in any organization with a hetero-majority membership? You couldn't have mean this. If you think about police, military, government and legislation - this might be a controversal question in highly oppressive societies, but certainly not in most todays democracies. Why should we by free pieces surrender the terrain we have conquered in long battles?

The problem which I see is, that you (apparently) assume that most straights naturally belong into the enemie's camp. This is not necessary the case. Not every heterosexual is a homophobe, and therefore qualifies as a potential ally, if offered a cooperation. Surelly, being a purist can be a satisfying feeling by times, but it is not very suitable strategy in pursuing some real improvements of life conditions.

By lucky circumstances, and mostly with an immense effort of persuation and political intriguing gays often enough have managed to pull a widely heterosexual majority into supporting our agenda. This has worked in many countries and proved to be a usefull strategy - the results are amazing, considering that we form solely 10 % of the population. Same-sex marriage legislation in Spain, Netherlands, Belgium and Canada for sure were not possible with cooperation of the heterosexuals - and shows that the "hetero rule" is not necessarily an eternal condition. We also must acknowledge a good will of those hetero politicians, who ventured to risc their own political career by helping us.

We shall form our community and proceed with improving our situation by both means - through our own efforts and by forming (temporary?) alliances. Of course we must be aware that such alliances do not*) last forewer, but we should use the possibilities when offered. It's not about collaborating with the enemy - it's about fighting against the common enemie, namely against the stupid bigots. A mistaken identification of one's assumed enemies can be fatal even on a political battlefield, right?
 :=SU

*) P.S. I corrected a typo here, of course I meant: "...such alliances do not last forewer..." instead of "...such alliances last forewer...". Beg your pardon.  :Y
Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: K6 on Wed, Jan 18, 2006, 12:11

The problem which I see is, that you (apparently) assume that most straights naturally belong into the enemie's camp. This is not necessary the case. Not every heterosexual is a homophobe, and therefore qualifies as a potential ally, if offered a cooperation. Surelly, being a purist can be a satisfying feeling by times, but it is not very suitable strategy in pursuing some real improvements of life conditions.

I take into consideration the fact that heterosexuals might be either friendly or hostile.But I regard both situations,friendship or hostility,as
tactical and transitory,and besides giving rise to sentiment and subjectivity which have no place in designing a policy.The objective way to regard heterosexuals is as foreigners,which is their permanent status,more predictable than their transitory mood (either friendly or hostile).I do not mind at all heterosexuals as foreigners when it comes only to relations of a personal nature.When it comes to relations of a political nature however,we shouldn`t deal with heterosexuals otherwise than in fashion similar to a State.Among others we should figure on the basis of what their interest - totally different from ours - will determine in terms of general conduct from their part.Truly independent people,and I assume here that we are a people,have no friends.They have only interests,eathly ones,to be defended by earhtly means,not heavenly ones.

K6
Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: Ninja_monkey on Wed, Jan 18, 2006, 18:40
It's a matter of attitude and first principles. Is a heterosexual person, at base, a potential homophobe, or is he a potential ally? Which is the more likely largely depends on where you live. In much of Europe, the treatment of gay people has evolved in a friendly direction, seemingly (to the outsider that I am) as the str8 populace gained greater understanding. That's lovely. In North America, however, what protections we enjoy come as a result of judicial fiat-- occasionally backed up by (mostly unpopular) legislative action that anemically seeks to solidify gains.

What that means to us in North America then, is that just as quickly and entirely as rights and protections were bestowed, they can be revoked. It's something they're painfully learning in Canada right now during the election season. Just a few short months after gay marriage was put in place-- seemingly carved for the ages in judicial and legislative stone-- it is again up for debate as a political hot potato. That which Washington and Ottawa may giveth, Washington and Ottawa may taketh away.

Forgive my cynicism, but we have seen this before in history, issuing first from St. Petersburg and next from Weimar.
Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: Mogul on Wed, Jan 18, 2006, 19:29
@K6:
But you do recognize that whenever two peoples share same territory, they must in some way deal with eachother? Even if accepting the premise that gays and straights are belonging to 2 different states, its not said that they cannot be citizens of one common state at the same time. They can, if they wish - many countries allow dual citizenship. It is another question, whether the gay state, once established, should allow dual citizenship - many countries do not. Dual citizenships may (theoreticall) arise doubts about shared loyalties or deprive a citizen of the consular support while being in the foreign country, but they also have immense, very earthy advantages. For example, mostly foreigners may not vote, sometimes may not aquire property or form political associations. Foreigners also can be expelled from the country or extradicted to any third party - not necessarily the original (gay) state. In short, foreigners have barely rights and lots of detriments connected to their status.

And there we must come back to the diasporic nature of our people. Any large territorial country has no serious reason to care too much about lack of rights for its citizens abroad, as they can conveniently have all the rights at home. A country like ours, with let's say 99,5 % of the entire population being permanent residents somewhere else, cannot afford the luxus of voluntarily accepting such severe disadvantages for our citizens. Therefore I would advocate to allow the dual citizenship as a regular case, with the exception of higher officials, who will have to give up their foreign citizenship. In the regular case, we should seek bilateral agreements for dual citizenship with those countries, who currently do not allow this.

I understand your conception of extraterritorial jurisdiction, like it was usual custom in the ancient world - but in our modern days this system has changed towards the territorial jurisdiction. Though there are still few exceptional examples of extraterritorial jurisdiction in modern world (e.g. US troups in various occupied territories), these examples are based on unilateral demonstration of power, not on bilateral agreements.

For extraterritoriality see e.g.:

Shin Shun Liu, EXTRATERRITORIALITY - Its Rise and Its Decline (1925)
http://www.panarchy.org/shihshunliu/presentation.1925.html

P.S. I understand, of course, the different experiences we are going through now - therefore there will be very likely no universal solution for every country?
Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: K6 on Wed, Jan 18, 2006, 23:46
@K6:
But you do recognize that whenever two peoples share same territory, they must in some way deal with eachother? Even if accepting the premise that gays and straights are belonging to 2 different states, its not said that they cannot be citizens of one common state at the same time. They can, if they wish - many countries allow dual citizenship.

North American Indian and aboriginal separatists would answer you with this picture: two canoes,sailing separately on the same river,and containing different people.

The Canada thing,of which I am a citizen by birthright,is a transitory entity.It appeared on paper and on the map back in 1867.It did not become fully competent in terms of international relations before 1930.And it has severed its so-called legal ties with the UK only in 1982.
It could disintegrate under the impact of Quebec`s separatism.What is Canada to me,a member of a group based on sexual orientation which has existed since the origins of mankind and long before Canada was founded ? A group which will still exist long after Canada has vanished from the world map ?

I am ready not to choose between Canada and my people,the gay people.But I am capable of such a choice,on the sound basis of continuity and eternity.

K6
Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: K6 on Thu, Jan 19, 2006, 00:03
Therefore I would advocate to allow the dual citizenship as a regular case, with the exception of higher officials, who will have to give up their foreign citizenship. In the regular case, we should seek bilateral agreements for dual citizenship with those countries, who currently do not allow this.

This solution,while being certainly inspired by the best of intentions,leaves too much room for manoeuver to foreigners and to foreign powers and interlopers.The other part of a dual citizenship is a factor which does not depend from us.It casts some heterosexuals,who could be foreign allies of ours,in the role of mercenaries.Have you read what Machiavelli says about mercenaries in his book titled "The Prince" ? You are at the mercy of mercenaries if they win,and left in the lurch if they are defeated.Besides,it is in the nature of mercenaries to fight politically and otherwise only insofar as it does not put their lives,their physical security or while we are at it their own interests at stake.We should cease to think,as a politically independent people,that others will commit themselves on behalf of our own distinct interests.

K6
Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: Mogul on Thu, Jan 19, 2006, 03:12
I am ready not to choose between Canada and my people,the gay people.But I am capable of such a choice,on the sound basis of continuity and eternity.

So am I. Alone, we probably can't demand the same from the vaste majority of our people - some practical ways would be therefore highly desireable. We don't want our people to voluntarily deprive themeselve of the little rights they have. Or else we must agree that only a tiny breach of our overall population will be included into the state structures. Do you think this would be an acceptable solution?

As to the "merceneries": Why "merceneries"? I would say "tactical allies" - it's always the matter of giving and taking. The bargaining is and always has been the daily bread of the politics. You help the Green Party to take nuclear plants from the landscape, they help you to push through the same-sex marriage. You can despise these habits, but they are the only functioning in a democracy. Any conquered terrain must be kept by persisting efforts - sometimes with other tactical allies. I do not think that in the gay state politics would be made any different.
Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: K6 on Thu, Jan 19, 2006, 06:49

As to the "merceneries": Why "merceneries"? I would say "tactical allies" - it's always the matter of giving and taking. The bargaining is and always has been the daily bread of the politics. You help the Green Party to take nuclear plants from the landscape, they help you to push through the same-sex marriage. You can despise these habits, but they are the only functioning in a democracy. Any conquered terrain must be kept by persisting efforts - sometimes with other tactical allies. I do not think that in the gay state politics would be made any different.


A State deals with foreigners as political associates or allies.But associates or allies standing physically outside its territory.That can be achieved
without a State structure,actually in the context of a micronational or parallel geopolitical structure.It requires no effort other than drawing lines and delineations of one`s choice on a map,and then dealing with members of non-gay political organisations who stand outside the territory
thus enclosed­ as political associates or allies.

K6
Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: K6 on Thu, Jan 19, 2006, 13:15

As to the "merceneries": Why "merceneries"? I would say "tactical allies" - it's always the matter of giving and taking. 

The treatment we receive from the liberals in certain social-democrat countries is fine.It is probably among the bests we ever had.But we ow it solely to the liberals remaining in political power,not to being ourselves in power.The liberals are wonderfull people.But they could be defeated at the polls or otherwise overthrown.And the social-democratic way of life they offer,while being quite confortable,lacks in heroism and sense of adventure and of history.

K6
Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: Mogul on Thu, Jan 19, 2006, 18:10
The treatment we receive from the liberals in certain social-democrat countries is fine.It is probably among the bests we ever had.But we ow it solely to the liberals remaining in political power,not to being ourselves in power.The liberals are wonderfull people.But they could be defeated at the polls or otherwise overthrown. [..]

Exactly - they can loose elections if they are in lack of supportive voices, and then our political enemies inevitably will come to power. Therefore it is possibly not a very good idea to voluntarily withdraw ca. 10% of the overall voices (which form 20% of the liberal-supporting voices) from the elections. No, we should actively participate in the political processes of the countries we are living in - and cooperate with our allies. You know, in the democratic elections the con:lib ratio is very often pending around the mark of 50:50 % and can be shifted to either side by very few percents. Therefore our 10% of overall voices are a very strong power to persuade liberals into supporting our cause. We only should use this power smart and support those parties, who are actually supportive to our cause.
Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: K6 on Thu, Jan 19, 2006, 18:23
Exactly - they can loose elections if they are in lack of supportive voices, and then our political enemies inevitably will come to power. Therefore it is possibly not a very good idea to voluntarily withdraw ca. 10% of the overall voices (which form 20% of the liberal-supporting voices) from the elections. No, we should actively participate in the political processes of the countries we are living in - and cooperate with our allies. You know, in the democratic elections the con:lib ratio is very often pending around the mark of 50:50 % and can be shifted to either side by very few percents. Therefore our 10% of overall voices are a very strong power to persuade liberals into supporting our cause. We only should use this power smart and support those parties, who are actually supportive to our cause.

In a situation of balance of power where we hold the balance,that only makes sense.And at a little cost,the one of a piece of paper one slides into a ballot box.But the social-democrat liberals can also face extra-parlementary opposition or extraordinary and revolutionnary situations for which they are no match,owing to the limitations of their non-heroic ideological and philosophical systems.

K6
Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: Mogul on Wed, Jan 25, 2006, 11:51
Actually, it is very usefull to demand too much and then agree into a compromise with a sullen face - this makes the other party think they have made a very fortunate bargain. This is a tactic succesfully used by Dutch merchants and is very practical against political friends like social democrats.

Against political enemies one can apply the "Salami tactics", when you struggle with them for each and every centimeter of the terrain. Just force them to agree into one slight concession and half a year later demand for improvements of the "still unsatisfactory situation". This can bring significant improvements with time, though it is very frustrating to fight over decades for some minor progresses.

It is actually surprising how few people take opportunity of writing an angry letter to one politician or other and demand for improvements. Or go to the office of the unfriendly political party and laudly demand for justice. Or make a sit-in tight there. :)
Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: K6 on Thu, Jan 26, 2006, 02:29

Against political enemies one can apply the "Salami tactics", when you struggle with them for each and every centimeter of the terrain. Just force them to agree into one slight concession and half a year later demand for improvements of the "still unsatisfactory situation". This can bring significant improvements with time, though it is very frustrating to fight over decades for some minor progresses.


It remains that integrationists - I mean assimilationists - have a limited amount time to achieve their goals.Whereas we have all the time,in the expectation of their unavoidable failure,to pursue other aims and further other designs.These,naturally,will have to do with gay self-determination.

By the way,there is a message for you in alt.politics.micronations.I haven`t to translate it this time,for it is in German.You may answer it likewise,in German.The group I represent in alt.politics.micronations shall see to that that it is translated and if necessary answered.

K6

Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: Mogul on Thu, Jan 26, 2006, 14:46
It remains that integrationists - I mean assimilationists - have a limited amount time to achieve their goals.Whereas we have all the time,in the expectation of their unavoidable failure,to pursue other aims and further other designs.These,naturally,will have to do with gay self-determination.

Ahem, I wouldn't say that's an "us against them" matter... There is generally no black and white in such things - people simply have different backgrounds and set their priorities in different ways - and I say this absolutely without any valuation. It makes little sense to lament that somebody doesn't join the agenda which appears for oneself very important and the only true one.  :L

Who  knows - maybe in 20 years the world would laugh about our "scurille" ideas, in 50 years celebrate us as prophetes and in 100 years forget all of us completely? :E One thing is most certainly true - in controversal discussions one can find weak points of any particular idea and look for solutions to overcome these weak points. It' s also an illusion to believe that a consensus can be achieved on any subject - sometimes one is forced to agree to disagree.

K6, I'm eager to discuss your "Code Civil de Homosexuelles" with your proposed definitions of gayness - come on, post them one by one! =))
Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: K6 on Thu, Jan 26, 2006, 18:36
K6, I'm eager to discuss your "Code Civil de Homosexuelles" with your proposed definitions of gayness - come on, post them one by one! =))

It would have to be translated first,for it is written in French.At the moment,I am too busy.What I could for the time being would be to provide a plan of that code,of its structure and subtitles.It is a text with 123 articles,sorted in 18 Divisions and three Parts.Part "A" contents only general provisions applying to all human beings,regardless of their sexual orientation.Part "B" concerns gays only,mainly their political tasks and duties.Part "C"
has to do with activities of support,in relation with the preceding tasks and duties.

K6
Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: Mogul on Fri, Jan 27, 2006, 21:48
OK, take all the time you need.  :L You could start a new thread and post the code away step by step. It is surelly very interesting - the part with gay duties will be certainly very controversal. 
:=SU

Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: K6 on Mon, Jan 30, 2006, 13:43
OK, take all the time you need.  :L You could start a new thread and post the code away step by step. It is surelly very interesting - the part with gay duties will be certainly very controversal. 
:=SU



Upon reflection,that would amount at representing officially the gay micronation in which I am involved.Which I have instructions not to do outside alt.politics.micronations for the time being.In alt.politics.micronations,I could post quotes of the said code,but within a general plan of activity adopted back in january 2005.According to that plan,I must post four messages in languages other than English before I post one in English.The micronation I am involved in has opted for a decentralized structure of communication,split in as many languages as possible.First,to reach as many gays as possible,90% of the world population not knowing English.Second,to complicate the task of eventual political adversaries.Unlike you within this forum,I do not possess the technical means or competence to lock out trouble makers.It is besides not
necessary if I can lock them out of my communication traffic and exchanges with others,by exploiting their weaknesses in international communication and foreign languages.This being said,it is possible to infer what the Code of the GPR contents,the views I express here
being those implemented in the GPR itself,here in north America.You thus get a detailed comment rather than mere quotes of the above
mentionned code.

K6
Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: Mogul on Tue, Jan 31, 2006, 04:15
According to that plan,I must post four messages in languages other than English before I post one in English.The micronation I am involved in has opted for a decentralized structure of communication,split in as many languages as possible.First,to reach as many gays as possible,90% of the world population not knowing English.Second,to complicate the task of eventual political adversaries.Unlike you within this forum,I do not possess the technical means or competence to lock out trouble makers.It is besides not necessary if I can lock them out of my communication traffic and exchanges with others,by exploiting their weaknesses in international communication and foreign languages.[..]

Yiek!  >:) This strategy is certainly very snaky against any potential adversaries, but it is also a little bit confusing for the little political allies you have! I mean, the world of gay nationalists is a very small one and it doesn't make the communication especially productive, when your conversation partners understand only 20% of what you share with the world. :N Why not grasp the code not as message but simply as archiving issue, therefore no problems with the strategy of your micronation should arise? But of course  I can wait untill you have posted away the other 4 obligatory messages in other languages - just let me know when I should look into alt.micrination.politics for a new contribution in English. 

As to our own adversaries, they would be perfectly able to post their views in this forum following few simple rules of common decency, but out of some ridiculous reasons they insist on using false e-mail adresses and other people's identities.
Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: K6 on Tue, Jan 31, 2006, 07:44
As to our own adversaries, they would be perfectly able to post their views in this forum following few simple rules of common decency, but out of some ridiculous reasons they insist on using false e-mail adresses and other people's identities.

So far,the GLR doesn`t seem to have encountered a specific opposition which more than a quarter of century of involvement as a gay separatist have made somewhat more familiar to me.Most of the time,gay separatism will not be greeted with hostility.In micropolitical forums and simulation,a gay micronation will most probably be greeted just like any other.A gay micropolitical actor will be assessed on the basis of his statecraft rather than his gayness.But the LGBT abreviation and constellation is confusing,in the sense that it doesn`t disclose different and potentially antagonistic interests.A certain number of characters hailing out the "B" element of the abreviation could litterally panick at hearing about gay separatism.A bit like those drunken straight guys one encounters in a bar,invites home,sleep with,and who then at dawn,and realizing what they`ve done in bed,start to beat you up.The pet hate of the "B" element of the LGBT abreviation for gay separatists is not a very pretty sight.We must not loose sight of that fact we have learned from experience that most homophobes have peripheral homosexual tendencies.They are not in secure possession of their hethro privilege,which makes them already unconfortable with gays who haven`t yet
displayed separatist or even at that political ambitions.Imagine then what will happen when they will cross the path of gays who seek political independence,a scenario in which they stand to loose litteraly everything.

K6
Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: Mogul on Tue, Jan 31, 2006, 17:10
Well, no one would be forced into separation? There is no reason for panick then - everybody shall be able to live on his façon. It's certainly true that bisexuals are not the primary target group for the gay state, but I see no reason to alienate all of them because of some problem cases with guilt complexes. Many of our greek "idols" were in truth bisexuals, and it would be ridiculous to worship the old greeks while condemn our contemporary bisexuals.  Generally I believe that in case the gay state should be founded, the "good ones" will separate themeselves from the "bad ones" in the natural way: they will either support this state or not. The same is to be expected for gays in the wide sense: they will either declare solidarity or refuse the project - no real need for us to classify them into "gays" and "non-gays" by means of legislation. Those who hold reproduction high or enjoy pleasures of both homo- and heterosexual sex will anyway feel no urge to leave the "normal" society.

Certainly, some criterions will be established, but I would suggest that these criterions are rather inclusive and not exclusive - means there must be possibility for a bi- or a transsexual to become full citizen without humiliating restrictions or invasion of his privacy. I must repeat my views about the civil rights: the state shall be only allowed to restrict them if this is stringently necessary, and only in an adequate manner. Since it is highly unlikeable that the gay state would be invaded by "straights with peripheral homosexual tendencies", there is no need to insult the few bisexual citizens with questions about their loyalty, hey?
Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: Mogul on Tue, Jan 31, 2006, 21:28
Polyandry could originate in an issue having to do with public order.I have no precise idea on how we gays would congregate in a situation of political independence and freedom.But disputes could arise between various informal clans or tribes over the possession of this of that most
handsome individual.

K6, you got it completely wrong: in the gay state there will be a perfect order:

1) The country is led by Mogul with iron hand;
2) The most beatifull boys serve Mogul and Vizier as private secretaries and personal guardes;
3) Every freshly immigrated youth below the age of 25 must prove that he is truly gay by accomplishing an extensive naturalization procedure, the quotes being justly distributed amongst the Gay Knights;
4) In case the youth is especially beatifull and therefore further investigation seems necessary to prove his gayness, other Gay Knights must be consulted;
5) see point 2.

As everyone can easily understand, this state system is the only one which would guarantee the country stability and social peace, therefore no serious doubt concerning this system can arise.
 >:)

P.S. I'm dying to read the novell! :)
Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: K6 on Wed, Feb 01, 2006, 00:18

P.S. I'm dying to read the novell! :)

It would have to be translated first,for I wrote it in French.It covers 522 pages.It has the aspect of a sometimes ponderous,sometimes surreal manual of history,occillating between the comic and the melodramatic,written by a collective of historians living in a gay independent country of
the future.They tell how that country came into existence,incorporating real events of the life of the Montreal gay community of the 1970s.It starts of course with a major catastrophy,of which I will not tell you here wether it had to do with geopolitics,economics or environment.A small gay community finds itself alone in the now desolate St.Lawrence valley which was formerly part of Canada.Throughout ensuing events constituting its saga,it shall face all kinds of trials (including an armed conflict).When the history ends 44 years later,the little community of the beginning has become a nation-State.While I was writting that novel,I often sought inspiration in listening classical music,notably to Rachmaninoff`s "Isle of the Dead".

K6
Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: K6 on Wed, Feb 01, 2006, 12:53
K6, you got it completely wrong: in the gay state there will be a perfect order:

1) The country is led by Mogul with iron hand;
2) The most beatifull boys serve Mogul and Vizier as private secretaries and personal guardes;
3) Every freshly immigrated youth below the age of 25 must prove that he is truly gay by accomplishing an extensive naturalization procedure, the quotes being justly distributed amongst the Gay Knights;
4) In case the youth is especially beatifull and therefore further investigation seems necessary to prove his gayness, other Gay Knights must be consulted;
5) see point 2.

As everyone can easily understand, this state system is the only one which would guarantee the country stability and social peace, therefore no serious doubt concerning this system can arise.


I do not mind at all about us having harems as a consequence of political independence,a most agreable consequence.But we should avoid pornocracy.Favourites would be there to provide us with entertainment,not with political advice.They should not either receive as a reward
for their services political information on the pillow.Otherwise,it will not be long before we produce our own version of Calligula.

K6
Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: Mogul on Wed, Feb 01, 2006, 21:55
It would have to be translated first,for I wrote it in French.It covers 522 pages. [..] A small gay community finds itself alone in the now desolate St.Lawrence valley which was formerly part of Canada.Throughout ensuing events constituting its saga,it shall face all kinds of trials (including an armed conflict).When the history ends 44 years later,the little community of the beginning has become a nation-State. [..]

Sounds interesting - why haven't you publish it so far? Beyound all "positive contributions to the gay nationalism movement" this work is probably of certain entertaining value. :) I don't think the world has many nice pieces of literature of this kind - count me as having sent a pre-order!

I do not mind at all about us having harems as a consequence of political independence,a most agreable consequence.But we should avoid pornocracy.Favourites would be there to provide us with entertainment,not with political advice.They should not either receive as a reward
for their services political information on the pillow.Otherwise,it will not be long before we produce our own version of Calligula.

Very true! Jokes aside, I have founded doubts that any politicians in highly responsible positions would have much time and energy left for satisfying an entire harem - but pretty boys as decoration and tourist attractions would be certainly fine! This would solve our youth unemployment problems either! =))
Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: K6 on Wed, Feb 01, 2006, 23:32
Sounds interesting - why haven't you publish it so far? Beyound all "positive contributions to the gay nationalism movement" this work is probably of certain entertaining value. :) I don't think the world has many nice pieces of literature of this kind - count me as having sent a pre-order!

In january 1991,I met an editor.He read the novel,and found it entertaining from the beginning to the last word.He was ready to publish it.I was not very satisfied though with the contract he was proposing me.So I contacted instead,and in the spring of 1992,the Archives Gaies du Québec,a Montreal based group specializing in gay history and compilation of gay litterature.I wasn`t too sure of their seriousness untill I first met them.These are scolars,either real archivists in professionnal life,or specialized in certain fields of knowledge like among others anthropology.The fate of my novel is now in their hands,for they have a copy of it.The novel is besides under a canadian copyright.I would have no difficulty in translating it into English.The problem is that being on a 9 to 5 work shift five days a week,I have no time to do so.I had to write that novel mostly at night,in the early hours of the morning (3 to 6 am).And I found it extremely frustrating to interrupt my writing to go to work.If I ever work again in novel writting,I must have no professional or money concern intefering in any way with it.I have a plan to write a following.But that will have to await untill my retirement.

K6
Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: K6 on Sat, Feb 04, 2006, 12:25
But of course  I can wait untill you have posted away the other 4 obligatory messages in other languages - just let me know when I should look into alt.micrination.politics for a new contribution in English. 

Two answers were posted recently for you in alt.politics.micronations,one in German and one in English.The German and Portuguese language
sectors of activity of the GPR are to be regarded as preparatory.I can have short casual conversations or brief exchanges in writing and in German,
but I do not really speak the language.I neither speak nor understand Portuguese in spoken form,but I read it without difficulty and can answer
in writing.

K6 
Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: Mogul on Sun, Feb 05, 2006, 14:37
I neither speak Portuguiese mor do I trust much to the translation machines.  :N Being a less complicated man, I am inclined to suggest using English, but I am afraid this will not meet your criterions for political correctness. =)) I posted a reply in alt.politics.micronations (http://groups.google.de/group/alt.politics.micronations/browse_thread/thread/2ed8c0dc8c8e0d1b/911fb60dd39d29e6?), which I would like to re-post here as well.

Quote
[..] Historians of the future will probably regard such earliest separatists gay circles like the GLR or the GPR as starting points of various gay political parties of a corresponding gay independent State,rather than embryos of that State itself. [..]

A State consists not only of the state apparatus, but also of various public institutions. Political parties and other opinion-shaping entities (churches etc.) are essential parts of many states. Before a Gay State (worth of this name) can be established, the task of creation of a Gay national identity must be accomplished. While being a people, we are far from being a nation.

The nation includes all the various political and societal diversity, kept together by the emotional bonds of being a nation. A nation can not be created by installing a government and issuing passports. A nation lives from participation of her members in forming the national identity, from her writers and publishers, from politicians and the "common folk". Various public and private initiatives keep a nation together - newspapers, television, historic books, museums and tea clubs. Certain shared ceremonies and celebrities are an essential part of national identity as well: ours are the Gay Pride Parades, Gay Games / Outgames - we could need a couple of them more.
Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: K6 on Sun, Feb 05, 2006, 15:05
I neither speak Portuguiese mor do I trust much to the translation machines.  :N Being a less complicated man, I am inclined to suggest using English, but I am afraid this will not meet your criterions for political correctness.

Rest assured that I do not dwell much in political corretness of fashions.It`s only that our human ressources and thus political means are dispersed.They are to be found in every country of the world.I am a separatist,but a practical one conscious that the environment in which I serve politically will by nature and necessity be international.Some outstanding and future political leader of our people could be hanging out there,who will not necessarily know English.In this forum,I do not mind at all using all the time or most of the time English.But in the service of my country,the GPR and in alt.politics.micronations,I must do my best to reach out in diverse geographical,cultural and linguistic directions,so as to exploit to the full this new technology of the internet and not miss some opportunity.Besides,and even before we set up any separatist political structure,we will have to demonstrate a capacity for operating and dealing on an international plane.

K6
Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: Mogul on Sun, Feb 05, 2006, 15:51
[..] Some outstanding and future political leader of our people could be hanging out there,who will not necessarily know English.In this forum,I do not mind at all using all the time or most of the time English.But in the service of my country,the GPR and in alt.politics.micronations,I must do my best to reach out in diverse geographical,cultural and linguistic directions,so as to exploit to the full this new technology of the internet and not miss some opportunity. [..]

Thanks for clarification - I am sorry a allowed myself to make a little fun of your multilingual attitudes.  :WN

You have entirely right, that we should take any possible effort to reach as many people as possible, and using their native languages is certainly an important part of strategie. On the other side, we should not let us be self-bondaged. It is important to take additional efforts to translate significant publications into as many languages as possible, but it is probably not so good an idea to restrict oneself from posting in English. After all, it is certainly more ressource-saving to make a compromise on using one language as a lingua franca - I favour IDO, as it seems to be the most easy to learn and use:

(http://people.freenet.de/vanrozenheim/ablage/Ido.jpg) (http://www.ido.li/)

Unfortunately, IDO language is not widely used and it would require lots of investment to make it more common - a life project on its own.
Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: K6 on Sun, Feb 05, 2006, 16:19
You have entirely right, that we should take any possible effort to reach as many people as possible, and using their native languages is certainly an important part of strategie. On the other side, we should not let us be self-bondaged. It is important to take additional efforts to translate significant publications into as many languages as possible, but it is probably not so good an idea to restrict oneself from posting in English. After all, it is certainly more ressource-saving to make a compromise on using one language as a lingua franca

You have already linguistic boards on this forum.You`ve used them in a manner which would not have occured to me at first,by posting material about gay rights from the European Union.Material which is already transated into some languages.I suggess that you pursue onto that path.If you get reactions in French,Spanish or Portuguese,I`ll try to find time to translate them into English.

K6
Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: Mogul on Sun, Feb 05, 2006, 20:03
You have already linguistic boards on this forum.You`ve used them in a manner which would not have occured to me at first,by posting material about gay rights from the European Union.Material which is already transated into some languages.I suggess that you pursue onto that path.If you get reactions in French,Spanish or Portuguese,I`ll try to find time to translate them into English.

Many non-native English speakers can understand English to a certain degree, but often miss the exact sense or are not very skilled in writing in this language. Therefore I think it is important to encourage people to improve their English skills, while at the same time give them possibility to exchange opinions in their native language as well. On this way somebody not so skilled in English can contribute his opinion to the discussion as well. It would be probably a difficult task to translate every post into 5 or 6 languages, but for important contributions an additional effort should be justified, I think.
Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: Mogul on Sun, Feb 05, 2006, 21:06
In january 1991,I met an editor.He read the novel,and found it entertaining from the beginning to the last word.He was ready to publish it.I was not very satisfied though with the contract he was proposing me.So I contacted instead,and in the spring of 1992,the Archives Gaies du Québec,a Montreal based group specializing in gay history and compilation of gay litterature.I wasn`t too sure of their seriousness untill I first met them.These are scolars,either real archivists in professionnal life,or specialized in certain fields of knowledge like among others anthropology.The fate of my novel is now in their hands,for they have a copy of it.The novel is besides under a canadian copyright.[..]

You mean this group:

Archives gaies du Québec (http://www.agq.qc.ca/indexen.html)
4067, boulevard St-Laurent, bureau 202
Montréal, Québec H2W 1Y7 Canada
(514) 287-9987
info@agq.qc.ca

Sorry for persistence, but what kind of arrangement have you made with these gentlemen? Are they going to publish the book or is it just shelved in the archive? This would be a pity.
Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: K6 on Mon, Feb 06, 2006, 01:03
Many non-native English speakers can understand English to a certain degree, but often miss the exact sense or are not very skilled in writing in this language.

I have travelled a certain number of times abroad.I found no confirmation that English was widely spoken or known beyond the showcase constituted by the hotel sector or the one of an educated class.Most often,I had to communicate in the local language.In Poland and with the
average pole encountered on the street,I communicated in Polish.In latin america,I spoke most of the time Spanish.

K6
Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: K6 on Mon, Feb 06, 2006, 01:29
You mean this group:

Archives gaies du Québec (http://www.agq.qc.ca/indexen.html)
4067, boulevard St-Laurent, bureau 202
Montréal, Québec H2W 1Y7 Canada
(514) 287-9987
info@agq.qc.ca

Sorry for persistence, but what kind of arrangement have you made with these gentlemen? Are they going to publish the book or is it just shelved in the archive? This would be a pity.

My concept of participation in the cause of gay self-determination is one of humble service,among anonymous millions ready to do the same without any personal reward.This is no time to talk about my personal litterary carreer.My novel and my fate are of no importance.

K6
Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: K6 on Tue, Feb 07, 2006, 13:43
You mean this group:

Archives gaies du Québec (http://www.agq.qc.ca/indexen.html)
4067, boulevard St-Laurent, bureau 202
Montréal, Québec H2W 1Y7 Canada
(514) 287-9987
info@agq.qc.ca

Sorry for persistence, but what kind of arrangement have you made with these gentlemen? Are they going to publish the book or is it just shelved in the archive? 

What the Archives Gaies du Québec (AGQ) have is to my knowledge available to the public,for consultation and reading in the place where the AGQ has its offices.My novel being written in French is of marginal interest so long as it as not been translated.At best,it could be of local use,to gays living in Montreal or in the province of Quebec.It couldn`t be of any use to the GLR or to any other international gay circle.Where I can be of service to other gay separatists is not with my novel,but rather with my reflexions on the subject of gay separatism,and with the connected knowledges I have accumulated on the way and during the last 35 years.I have been a gay separatist almost from the moment heterosexuals first crossed me.

K6
Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: Mogul on Tue, Feb 07, 2006, 21:43
[..] My novel being written in French is of marginal interest so long as it as not been translated.At best,it could be of local use,to gays living in Montreal or in the province of Quebec.It couldn`t be of any use to the GLR or to any other international gay circle.Where I can be of service to other gay separatists is not with my novel,but rather with my reflexions on the subject of gay separatism,and with the connected knowledges I have accumulated on the way and during the last 35 years.I have been a gay separatist almost from the moment heterosexuals first crossed me.

I am most sure that there would be much interest among those who speak French - there are many also in France and Africa. :) Literature is very important, as it not only provides us with joy and pleasure, but also with new ideas. A separatist novell is of course an interesting thing!

Well, why not make a compillation of your ideas into one piece of work and present it in a publication? I know, it is not an easy task, but a worthy one. Sure, such thing would require time - but Roma also wasn't built over night. Also some list of gay literature which you can recommend (in what language you want) would certainly be of interest. Our online library/archive is in an embrional stage yet, and suggestions are highly welcomed. Pictures, textes, informations about gay memorials etc - everything is welcome.
Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: K6 on Wed, Feb 08, 2006, 00:14
Well, why not make a compillation of your ideas into one piece of work and present it in a publication? I know, it is not an easy task, but a worthy one. Sure, such thing would require time - but Roma also wasn't built over night.

Since january 1st,1995,I keep up to date a political diary,to register my ideological evolution over the years.Incorporated in it is that code I earlier mentionned,along with maps of the territory of its implementation and changes in the configuration of that territory.Steps have been taken so that the Archives Gaies du Québec will get it should anything happen to me.But I think that this forum of yours is something better and more efficient,if you can only keep it in operation for a certain number of years.In my political diary,I only debate with myself.Here,I have the privilege of debating with other gay separatists,something I have never dreamt it would happen before you contacted me last november.So,in this forum,we could accumulate a corpus of debates and political doctrine having to do with gay independence.And from then on,evolve some blueprint for secession from the hethro Empire.

K6
Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: K6 on Wed, Feb 08, 2006, 00:28
I am most sure that there would be much interest among those who speak French - there are many also in France and Africa. :) Literature is very important, as it not only provides us with joy and pleasure, but also with new ideas. A separatist novell is of course an interesting thing!

Should a participant to this forum and from the province of Quebec appear,I will give him the necessary information so that he will have access to
the copy of my novel now in the hands of the Archives Gaies du Québec (AGQ).I have been a major contributor to the AGQ from 1992 to 1999,
and I know personally some of its leaders or founders.Close friends of mine have read the novel.Generally,they haven`t liked the first part ("The Ghetto"),but they have enjoyed the two others ("The Colony" and then "The Republic").I put myself in the shoes of gay historians of the future,living in political independence,and regarding it as only their due.Thus,looking down not without some measure of contempt on both
heterosexuals and gays of these former times,when we gays lived under the hethro jackboot.

K6
Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: Mogul on Wed, Feb 08, 2006, 23:02
So,in this forum,we could accumulate a corpus of debates and political doctrine having to o with gay independence.And from then on,evolve some blueprint for secession from the hethro Empire.

That's exactly what we are here for. Even if only few authors have so far contributed to the debates, the opinions about the way and purposes of the gay state vary in a large scope. Where to put such a state, who is eligible for residential/citizen status, what to do with heterosexual kids and how should the state be governed? The differences in suggested solution, even funded opposition to our cause as such are important: it contributes to the pools of ideas and helps to uncover weak points and neglected problems. I am sure that as much closer we would come to actual realization of our goal, as more wide spectrum of problems we will have to deal with: from economical developement to medical supply and environment protection.

For the first it is important to bring all the interested individuals together and channel our efforts in promotion of the idea. As non of us are professional marketer and our financial ressources are rather sparse, the internet seems to offer the best cost/utility ratio for propaganda. We could also place ads in gay magazines, distribute flyers, postcards and posters, in the hope that some more gay nationalists are there but have never known that others exist as well. 

Generally, everybody is welcome who is interested in further developement of gays/queer as a distinct people on its own. If/when the gay state will be established, it will closely cooperate with the diaspora and need all the help it can get. The cultural and political advancement of the entire gay population will be our task. As for any cultural work no separated territory is required, we can start gathering lots of material right now, and hopefully become the place for research on gay culture. However, untill this days will come, we will have to do a lot of work and try to involve others already active on the field.

If you have a possibility to digitalize some of your stuff, you maybe should do it. As you said, the Internet offers incredible chances, if one has the big luck to make the breakthrough into public visibility. 

Close friends of mine have read the novel.Generally,they haven`t liked the first part ("The Ghetto"),but they have enjoyed the two others ("The Colony" and then "The Republic").I put myself in the shoes of gay historians of the future,living in political independence,and regarding it as only their due.

This sounds pretty interesting - I think I would enjoy it very much. Do you appreciate Issaak Asimov? He is one of my favorite SF writers and his works of "Robots"-series have inspired me in my early youth very much. It would be a greate thing we could have some comparable Saga about our gay republic! OK, if someone would love to write a mystic gay kingdom novel, I would read it as well.
Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: K6 on Thu, Feb 09, 2006, 11:14
That's exactly what we are here for. Even if only few authors have so far contributed to the debates, the opinions about the way and purposes of the gay state vary in a large scope.

Based on experience,I wouldn`t expect to encounter many gays who are separatists.I wouldn`t expect either that agreement will automatically
flow between gays and from the fact that they are separatists.A few non-separatist gays may regard us as crackpots.But in general,the "G" element of the LGBT constellation will not oppose gay separatism.Possibly for that reason that gays never accepted heterosexual domination,no matter the odds against them.The hethro regime cannot really count on their loyalty,or on their defending interests which they have clearly identified as not being theirs.

K6
Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: K6 on Thu, Feb 09, 2006, 11:31

Do you appreciate Issaak Asimov? He is one of my favorite SF writers and his works of "Robots"-series have inspired me in my early youth very much. It would be a greate thing we could have some comparable Saga about our gay republic! OK, if someone would love to write a mystic gay kingdom novel, I would read it as well.

I heard often of Asimov,but never actually read anything written by him.When I was young,my preferences went to Jules Verne`s novels.Or to Daniel Defoe`s "Robinson Crusoe".Or to the Belgian "Tintin" cartoons.I enjoyed - and still enjoy - realistic adventure stories,but disliked fairy tales with magical or divine interventions.Science-fiction novels would interest me if the scenario was plausible."Brave new world" was of that kind,and filled me with joy.

K6
Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: Mogul on Thu, Feb 09, 2006, 21:11
[..] A few non-separatist gays may regard us as crackpots.But in general,the "G" element of the LGBT constellation will not oppose gay separatism.Possibly for that reason that gays never accepted heterosexual domination,no matter the odds against them. [..]

Most gays, as most humans in generall, are not engaged in political activities, but this of course does not mean that they are desinterested in politics. The interest is there, but lays dormant of some reason or other. The difficulty to organize gays into some kind of non-recreational activity origins mostly from our dispersion, making thus personal contacts connected to additional efforts. It is indeed not very likely that large numbers of gays from Western Europe or North America would leave their jobs and families and emigrate to a new-founded state without developed infrastructure and with low social standarts. But this does not mean that they would be a priory reluctant to organize themselves in communities in their home countries - on an inofficial level this is already happening since decades. In less developed countries, especially with widely spread discrimination against homosexuals, such communities would offer their members not only emotional support, but also additional economical advantages. Everywhere in the world there are uncountable monasteries and religious orders existing, with millions of members, who voluntary live in poverty and dispense with sexual activities. I see no sensible reason why "gay orders" / "gay colonies" which promulgate economical prosperity, allow active sexual live and offer increased safety should be less attractive for our people. The final establishment of a gay state would require a critical mass of citizens, of course - but after its establishment there will be a constant influx of immigrants, this much seems sure. The difficulty is to overcome the initial frustration and disbelief. Not the cause itself deems wrong to most gays, but the chances for its realization appear very small for them and therefore not worth of any financial or personal investment. The sole reason why we "must be mad wasting time for something so foolish" is the disbelief that it could function, not the cause as such. Thus this becomes a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy: to vew people engage in the project and therefore it fails. We must overcome this. 

When I was young,my preferences went to Jules Verne`s novels.Or to Daniel Defoe`s "Robinson Crusoe".Or to the Belgian "Tintin" cartoons.I enjoyed - and still enjoy - realistic adventure stories,but disliked fairy tales with magical or divine interventions.Science-fiction novels would interest me if the scenario was plausible."Brave new world" was of that kind,and filled me with joy.

Funny, we have similar preferences in literaure. "Robinson Crusoe" is indeed one of my most favored books at all, and Jules Verne was my most loved author in my early youth. I am pretty sure that you will find pleasure in reading Asomovs "Prelude to foundation", "Foundation", "Foundation and Empire" and "Second foundation". It has much of "Realpolitik" in it, indeed I was accused once that my addiction to gay separatism was influenced much by Asimovs works.

 :=SU
Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: K6 on Thu, Feb 09, 2006, 23:37

Funny, we have similar preferences in literaure. "Robinson Crusoe" is indeed one of my most favored books at all, and Jules Verne was my most loved author in my early youth. I am pretty sure that you will find pleasure in reading Asomovs "Prelude to foundation", "Foundation", "Foundation and Empire" and "Second foundation". It has much of "Realpolitik" in it, indeed I was accused once that my addiction to gay separatism was influenced much by Asimovs works.

 :=SU

Litterature certainly played a role in the formation of my gay separatist sentiments,in combination with my life experiences.At the end of a school year in primary level,a teacher offered me "Robinson Crusoe".I was then eleven years old.Robinson Crusoe`s island would perhaps have appeared as a setting remote to most boys living in industrial and overcrowded societies.But it was very close to my everyday life and reality during the summer vacations of those times.For I spent the first 15 years of my life in a remote part of Canada,in Gaspé more precisely.My family had a summer cottage established on a sandy peninsula not far from the entrance of the bay of Gaspé.In a grandiose landscape,there lied my playground.My father had had a sailboat constructed for me.So my activity consisted in sailing along that peninsula,exploring it inland and hunting small game.Even when my family moved where I live now,up untill age 25 most of my spare time was spent in the large forests we have in my nowadays area,and which ressemble much the Ardenne forest in Europe.This probably made me hungry for space to roam,as I had roamed freely during my entire youth.

K6
Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: K6 on Fri, Feb 10, 2006, 07:02
Most gays, as most humans in generall, are not engaged in political activities, but this of course does not mean that they are desinterested in politics. The interest is there, but lays dormant of some reason or other. The difficulty to organize gays into some kind of non-recreational activity origins mostly from our dispersion, making thus personal contacts connected to additional efforts. It is indeed not very likely that large numbers of gays from Western Europe or North America would leave their jobs and families and emigrate to a new-founded state without developed infrastructure and with low social standarts. But this does not mean that they would be a priory reluctant to organize themselves in communities in their home countries - on an inofficial level this is already happening since decades. In less developed countries, especially with widely spread discrimination against homosexuals, such communities would offer their members not only emotional support, but also additional economical advantages. Everywhere in the world there are uncountable monasteries and religious orders existing, with millions of members, who voluntary live in poverty and dispense with sexual activities. I see no sensible reason why "gay orders" / "gay colonies" which promulgate economical prosperity, allow active sexual live and offer increased safety should be less attractive for our people. The final establishment of a gay state would require a critical mass of citizens, of course - but after its establishment there will be a constant influx of immigrants, this much seems sure.

That question is tackled in my novel.At first,gays hesitated and the then gay colony encountered serious difficulties in importing human ressources.Demographically speaking,it was running below the level of replacement of generations.But the colony was then the object of an
outside armed agression which,after much blood and tears,ended unexpextedly in crowning victory for the gay colonists.This changed the opinion of gays living abroad about the viability of the colony and of its status as a really secure place.A few months later,gays especially the young and the ones from less tolerant countries,were leaving en masse for the colony,transiting through more tolerant countries such as for example the Netherlands,and listening to no advice to stay and try to change their situation in heterosexual countries and societies.Within a decade,the future gay country had its critical masse de manoeuvre,its few millions necessary for the foundation of a gay Republic.And that,despite the fact that the then gay colony had a far lower standard of living to offer.This world is a place of scarcity.The wealthy and free countries from a gay point of view are few,the poor and dangerous ones are the rule.Integrationists would have a very weak point in any argument,should the choice of a gay colony and future country existed.

K6
Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: Mogul on Tue, Feb 14, 2006, 02:55
This world is a place of scarcity.The wealthy and free ountries from a gay point of view are few,the poor and dangerous ones are the rule.Integrationists would have a very weak point in any argument,should the choice of a gay colony and future country existed.

This is certainly true. Whereas a young gay professional in New York, Montreal or Sydney has probably little reason to escape to a gay colony with medium wealth standards and limited job perspectives, the gays and lesbians from Indonesia, Columbia or China would sell their last shirt to buy the airplane ticket to such a colony. The problem what must be solved is the propaganda in poor or oppressive countries: how can we let the homosexuals in these countries know that we exist and give them notice that they will be received with open arms? A pervert way to solve the problem could be to pay a ransom for them to the oppressive governments, but isn't this a dangerous way? I don't know.
Title: Re: Continuation of a debate initiated by e-mail
Post by: K6 on Tue, Feb 14, 2006, 04:42
This is certainly true. Whereas a young gay professional in New York, Montreal or Sydney has probably little reason to escape to a gay colony with medium wealth standards and limited job perspectives, the gays and lesbians from Indonesia, Columbia or China would sell their last shirt to buy the airplane ticket to such a colony. The problem what must be solved is the propaganda in poor or oppressive countries: how can we let the homosexuals in these countries know that we exist and give them notice that they will be received with open arms? A pervert way to solve the problem could be to pay a ransom for them to the oppressive governments, but isn't this a dangerous way? I don't know.

While I was writing my novel,I found no solution to the issue you are raising here outside a clearcut gay victory in an armed conflict.In my novel and before that conflict,no one - heterosexual or gay - would help the gay colony.When it was learned that it had defeated soundly an expeditionnary force sent against it,and even captured and displayed its leaders on TV held in leash and forced to sign an act of unconditional surrender,no gay living abroad would further listen to any advice not to join the colony if such was is choice and pleasure.

K6