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Author Topic: Kingdom of Fridet  (Read 20859 times)

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K6

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Re: Kingdom of Fridet
« Reply #46 on: Tue, Dec 13, 2005, 01:15 »

I do, and so did Jews back before Israel, have a problem with a Nation claiming they represent "Gays" or "Jews".  You can go independent or call yourself this or that, but you will NEVER represent the gays.

Beg you pardon,but the representation of the interest of the gay people on an international plane shall be a matter of power politics.Those without organisation will represent no one.

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Mogul

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Re: Kingdom of Fridet
« Reply #45 on: Tue, Dec 13, 2005, 01:01 »

I do, and so did Jews back before Israel, have a problem with a Nation claiming they represent "Gays" or "Jews".  You can go independent or call yourself this or that, but you will NEVER represent the gays.

Why, no one is talking about representation of every single Jew or every single Homosexual! Neither does my (German) government represent my personal opinion on every single issue, but nevertheless I (and my ego) must bear this injustice... There are lots of topics which could be adressed by a "gay government" without causing outcry of "assimilated" homosexuals - e.g. the question of human rights in hostile countries, equal social protection or medical supply for gay people suffering from AIDS and the like. One can talk on behalf of somebody, without pretending to be charged with representation, right? A "gay government" would, of course, rightfully represent only the citizens of the "gay state" and affiliated gays in diaspora; nevertheless its actions can be directed towars benefit of the entire LGBT population.
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin

fridet

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Re: Kingdom of Fridet
« Reply #44 on: Tue, Dec 13, 2005, 00:40 »

I do, and so did Jews back before Israel, have a problem with a Nation claiming they represent "Gays" or "Jews".  You can go independent or call yourself this or that, but you will NEVER represent the gays.

I have a problem with people stealing the voice of any people.  I am not stealing a voice, I'm creating a voice.  The fact is the MAJORITY of Jews still live out side Israel.  In fact, there are MORE Jews in America then in Israel.  Again, my previous post talked about this.

I hope this relates my problem with a "Gay" kingdom and why it will NEVER be established as a true voice.  America has a huge history of Bullying Americans to vote or think a certain way just because they are American.  I would hate to see this also happen to gays.

Mogul

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Re: Kingdom of Fridet
« Reply #43 on: Tue, Dec 13, 2005, 00:30 »

If you look in history, it has always been a progress for the right.  You might mention the Holocaust or Slavery or Blah Blah Blah.  Things in fact that had NOTHING to do with Gays (except the holocaust) or Straights really.  However, good eventually prevailed.

I wouldn't call 50.000.000 dead during the WW2 a "triumph of the good". Neither can I recognize any progress in human race, which is now perfectly able to extinguish itself from the face of the planet by pressing 2 or 3 red power bottons. You have good right to believe anything you want but you can't expect other people taking your beliefs for the only possible truth. I for my part would be happy if there would be a place on this planet where gays or lesbians from hostile countries could escape to.

Why are you this much upset about the idea of a gay nation? Cann't you imaging that many people might have serious reasons for pursuing this goal without seeking to do any harm to you or any friendly heterosexuals? Till now you haven't expressed hart feelings against existence of China, USA, Nigeria or whatever other nation state, so why this fervor against the gay state? If you think that this is nothing for you, fine - no one is urging you into it. You can preserve your own beliefs, care for the homeless, the animals or whatever, but let the others do what they believe is more important for them. Just show some of the tolerance you are pleadging for and accept this.

There are several quotations from Theodor Herzl which I like very much, they are:

"Naturally, the pressure inspires in us hostility against our oppressors-and our hostility in turn increases the pressure. It is impossible to escape this vicious circle. "No!" some soft-hearted idealists will say. 'No! It is possible - through the innate goodness of man which needs to be brought out.' Is it really necessary for me to demonstrate what sentimental drivel this is? Anyone who wanted to base an improvement of conditions upon the goodness of all men would certainly be writing a Utopia!"

"Our national character is too famous in history and, despite all degradations, too noble to make its decline desirable. [..] We are a people - our enemies have made us one without our volition, as has always happened in history. Affliction makes us stand by one another, and at such times we suddenly discover our strength. Yes, we are strong enough to form a state, and a model state at that. We have all the human and material resources required for it."

"However, the fact that I draw this conclusion ingenuously and guided only by the truth will probably net me the opposition and enmity of those Jews who are in comfortable circumstances. Insofar as it is only a matter of private interests held by people who feel endangered because they are narrow-minded or cowardly, they might be passed over with contemptuous laughter, for the cause of the poor and downtrodden is more important. But from the outset I wish to keep any erroneous ideas from arising, particularly the notion that Jewish property might be harmed if this plan ever materialized. [..] If, on the other hand, my plan never becomes anything but a piece of literature, things will remain as they are anyway."

"If any or all of French Jewry protest against this plan, saying that they are already "assimilated," my answer is simple: The whole thing is none of their business. They are Israelitic Frenchmen; splendid! But this is a private affair of the Jews."


I couldn't have said it better!  :=SU
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin

K6

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Re: Kingdom of Fridet
« Reply #42 on: Mon, Dec 12, 2005, 23:52 »


I confess that I am a gay nationalist in a good sense of this word: I believe we are an ethnos on our own (or at least can form one with a bit more efforts); I also believe that it would be inherently good for us and the world if gays and lesbians would have a country for our own.

At first glance,we gays seem to constitute an ethnos.But we differ from national groups in matters which have to do with time and space.We
aren`t a local human group as are nations.We aren`t either a human group which was formed in recent historical times,like European nations
which appeared on the map over the last thousand years.In certain respects,we are an international group.And our methods of political action
are bound to be in certain respects international,since no local gay population has any chance to conquer on its own.Gay self-determination is bound to be the result of an international effort of cooperation,or there will simply be no gay self-determination in human history.Being an international group belittles in no way the idea of a gay independent state,on the contrary.Actually,it makes it stronger in a moral and organisational way than a classical nation-state limited in time and space.

K6

K6

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Re: Kingdom of Fridet
« Reply #41 on: Mon, Dec 12, 2005, 23:37 »

Martin Luther King Jr. said "The curve of justice always bends for those that are right".  I 100% agree with that statement.  If you look in history, it has always been a progress for the right.  You might mention the Holocaust or Slavery or Blah Blah Blah.  Things in fact that had NOTHING to do with Gays (except the holocaust) or Straights really.  However, good eventually prevailed.

In the world of realpolitics,it is possible to trust in part other political actors.But trusting them entirely is not warranted by what history teaches us
about human nature,and makes us appear as not credible as political actors ourselves,and even more specifically as adversaries.A gay people without a state or at least something ressembling a state apparatus is not a credible adversary.There is no risk involved in taking away the rights of people who aren`t credible adversaries,or in abandonning them as allies.

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fridet

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Re: Kingdom of Fridet
« Reply #40 on: Mon, Dec 12, 2005, 20:49 »

Martin Luther King Jr. said "The curve of justice always bends for those that are right".  I 100% agree with that statement.  If you look in history, it has always been a progress for the right.  You might mention the Holocaust or Slavery or Blah Blah Blah.  Things in fact that had NOTHING to do with Gays (except the holocaust) or Straights really.  However, good eventually prevailed.

We are a mere DROP in the bucket of life.  Our time is that of a a Flower, here one day and gone the next.  Our IMPACT is here FOREVER.

One must remember that for ENTERNITY, gays will be born on EVERY corner of this earth.  And my children (when I get them) may not be gay, but be str8.

I was born in S.Korea by two Norwegian Parents.  I have lived in USA, UK, Israel, S.Korea, Norway.  I'm probably what you would call an Internationalist.  I agree with you, Germany is a "German" state, but only because the Majority of people in it Identify as German.   Nationalism is for Fools, your people will not stand by you for being "Gay" or "German".  They will stand by you because they BELEIVE the same as you.   Evangelical Christians are PERFECT example of this.  They live in almost every country known (and I hate them) but have yet a sense of unity, defense for each other, and common beleifs.  I should know my older sister is one.

Its human nature to want to Indentify and be part of a superiour group.  Jews do it, Gays do it, Germans didi it.  Norwegian do it, Americans do it.  I could go on forever.  Hardly ever is that correct or wise, exspecially when they have all failed us.   Most gays do SHIT for other gays, no offence.   If every gay person stood up today and asked to be heard, things would happen so much faster, but since they are so busy getting laid and clubbing, well... (not that I blame them, its just human nature).

Division never solved anything (even in math class).   I think any Gay Kingdom will have the same fate of the Coral Seas, because we are SO Diverse.

Karnickel

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Re: Kingdom of Fridet
« Reply #39 on: Mon, Dec 12, 2005, 15:56 »

I guess I need to explain, "hacked post".  That does not mean editing or deleting my posts, rather that infers the constant atempts and acheivement of MOVING a topic off its original topic.   The post was about the difference between a "gay" kingdom & fridet, and my disagreements with a "gay" kingdom.

Ah, so it was a simple misunderstanding. You should be more careful with certain words, as they usually cause "red" alarm in this forum. :+ There are no special rules in the Café, but we generally desire to comfort everybody. O:) If you wish, we can splitt this thread with your initial post forming a separate topic. Would this help?

Mogul

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Re: Kingdom of Fridet
« Reply #38 on: Mon, Dec 12, 2005, 15:48 »

The State of Israel isn't Jewish State, rather the Majority of its Citizens are Jewish.  In fact the Majority of Jews around the world do not support the State of Israel's Actions.  This may be also noted by the CONSTANT minority governments in Israel.  Though any Jew can immigrate at will, that does not make a state Jewish.   People do not choose a state because they are something (English, Jewish, Gay).  Rather because of Economic Reasons or Poltical Belief Reasons.  It just Happens that most English are born in England, and most Germans are born in Germany, thus evolving the Idea of a "German State" when in fact this is pure lies.  As our world grows smaller this will become even more evident, and the EU has really shown the light on this.   Sometimes you notice that Hispanics or Asians in America stay together. [..] There are many cases where bridges fall because of new Economic or Belief reasons. Lastly, I think hiding in corners or sectarianism is bad for any group of people and will make things more difficult, not easier.

Oh yes, this discussion is of a more general nature: it's not only about "queers" and "straights", it's about nationalism as such. I am afraid, in this question no consensus can be achieved a priory: it's because the nationalist's worldview is differing from the worldview of an internationalist. I recommend the lecture of a series of (excellent) articles from Paul Treanor, who is discussing the issue extensively:

http://web.inter.nl.net/users/Paul.Treanor/plana.html
http://www.socresonline.org.uk/2/1/8.html
http://www.nationalismproject.org/

You can be a nationalist or an internationalist, but you can't claim that Israel is not a Jewish state or Germany is not a German state or that any other country isn't heterosexual country. The prevalent culture determines the nature of the state, and only few countries are true multinational states (Vielvölkerstaat).

I confess that I am a gay nationalist in a good sense of this word: I believe we are an ethnos on our own (or at least can form one with a bit more efforts); I also believe that it would be inherently good for us and the world if gays and lesbians would have a country for our own. I believe that humans of different nationalities have much in common but they are still different. I am not afraid of these differences, as I regard the diversity as positive value. I believe that Germans, Jews, Mongolians, Australians and so on are not more and not less worth because of being whatever nationality they are, but I also believe that every nation/people has a right for self-determination.

Chinese are in principle not worse than Tibetans are, but Chinese have absolutely no right to impose their culture upon the Tibetan culture and murder everyone who resists them. The same is true for gays and straights: we are no better than heterosexuals, but we have a right for our own culture. Put on your television set (with 20-30 channels), tell me what you see and dare claim that we are not an oppressed culture.

Everyone in this world has something to give if they can clear their minds, open their hearts and reach for true potential.  And, QUIT THINKING that EVERYONE this ISN'T like YOU is INHERENTLY EVIL.  Straight people are not evil, but rather have been taught evil.

Though I agree that no one is evil just because she/he is different from me, I must tell you some people are inherently evil. And I really mean it: very, very bad people. They rape, torture and kill men, women and children, pickle their eyes out, smash their genitals and perform similar cruelties (the list is very long) while laughing and jerking off. These people can be loving husbands and parents, but they nevertheless are inherently evil. Christians believe that you should preach to such people to make their minds clear and hearts open, I believe that one rather should do the world a favour and prevent such evil people from performing more cruelties. Going a step back (to those who "solely" enjoy "fag bashing" or are instigating to this Volkssport), I must say that everyone has a right to self-defence. No need to explain to a skinhead with a baseball bat that you are also a loving human being (he will not listen anyway), but better grasp an iron stick yourself timely and teach him better.

Having this said, I of course do not believe that all or even most heterosexuals are evil creatures and wish us any harm. Many of them are supportive from this reason or the other, few are really accepting us as equals. Nevertheless, most of them never understand us and, while loving us, still regard our sexuality as inferior and would wish us (with best intentions and out of heart, of course) to "heal" and change to heterosexuals. At least in the Jewish-Christian-Muslim world, homosexuality will probably remain an "issue" for the next thousand years (humans have proved themselves to be incredibly stupid). Sure, in the last decades remarkable successes were achieved in some western countries, but they might be of a temporary nature. As the history teaches us, the former friendly neighbours can quickly turn to be your enemies (Germany 1933-1945, Yugoslavia 1991-1999, Rwanda 1994) and the cute polite boy next door might join the militia who will escort you to the execution place.

You think I am exaggerating awfully? Ask the older of your Jewish friends, they might tell you what their parents/grandparents were thinking 1920 in Europe. In former soviet Russia the religion was believed to be stamped out entirely and enlightenment and socialistic values were incorporated by the majority of citizens - you would not believe to what extent the moral decay and spread of religious barbary occurred in the last 15 years. I do not at all trust into the "good" and "noble" human nature and the never-ending progress of the human race.
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin

K6

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Re: Kingdom of Fridet
« Reply #37 on: Mon, Dec 12, 2005, 02:42 »

Lastly, I think hiding in corners or sectarianism is bad for any group of people and will make things more difficult, not easier.  I think the best example of this is Black's in Southern USA.  Everyone in this world has something to give if they can clear their minds, open their hearts and reach for true potential.  And, QUIT THINKING that EVERYONE this ISN'T like YOU is INHERENTLY EVIL.  Straight people are not evil, but rather have been taught evil.

I make no such distinctions as good or evil in the context of a political discussion.If I were to do so,I would concur without much difficulty that all heterosexuals aren`t evil.Happy and stable heterosexuals do not mind about us.But that is not relevant in places and countries where they aren`t in power,so that we may deal with them under relatively advantageous conditions.With unhappy and unstable heterosexuals,and there are all too many of them,in power in too many places and countries,we must expect trouble.And our difficulties have lasted long enough.I won`t be among those who will allow the heterosexuals another 2,000 years to reform their societies,if we can seceed from them before that.

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fridet

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Re: Kingdom of Fridet
« Reply #36 on: Mon, Dec 12, 2005, 01:53 »

I guess I need to explain, "hacked post".  That does not mean editing or deleting my posts, rather that infers the constant atempts and acheivement of MOVING a topic off its original topic.   The post was about the difference between a "gay" kingdom & fridet, and my disagreements with a "gay" kingdom.

You make an interesting reference to the State of Israel (in which I have lived and attended school).  The State of Israel isn't Jewish State, rather the Majority of its Citizens are Jewish.  In fact the Majority of Jews around the world do not support the State of Israel's Actions.  This may be also noted by the CONSTANT minoirity governments in Israel.  Though any Jew can immigrate at will, that does not make a state Jewish.   People do not choose a state because they are something (English, Jewish, Gay).  Rather because of Economic Reasons or Poltical Belief Reasons.  It just Happens that most English are born in England, and most Germans are born in Germany, thus evolving the Idea of a "German State" when in fact this is pure lies.  As our world grows smaller this will become even more evident, and the EU has really shown the light on this.   Sometimes you notice that Hispanics or Asians in America stay together.  You might say that this is an arguement against my ideas, rather this is because they come from a place where they have been taught the same beleifs and values and continue these on.  There are many cases where bridges fall because of new Economic or Belief reasons.

Lastly, I think hiding in corners or sectarianism is bad for any group of people and will make things more difficult, not easier.  I think the best example of this is Black's in Southern USA.  Everyone in this world has something to give if they can clear their minds, open their hearts and reach for true potential.  And, QUIT THINKING that EVERYONE this ISN'T like YOU is INHERENTLY EVIL.  Straight people are not evil, but rather have been taught evil.

K6

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Re: Kingdom of Fridet
« Reply #35 on: Sun, Dec 11, 2005, 16:46 »

We are interested in your ideas, though this not necesserely means we always agree with them (we hardly have a consens within the group itself - this makes it so interesting!).  :T [/color]

(Mogul was hereby debating with the representative of Fridet)

I have a practical suggestion.

The representative of Fridet might have the impression that the thread he himself initiated was hijacked.Which is in part true.There arises here a problem of difference in the respective educational systems in which we originated.Mogul is capable,as most Europeans,of elaborate discussion about matters having to do with geopolitics,history and geography.I have no problem at all in following him in his assessments,though I am not
a European myself.US educational systems are different.They provide Americans with little information about the subjects under discussion here: geopolitics,history,geography and general knowledge of foreign countries and languages.

It remains that our Americans colleagues do know their own immediate geopolitical environment,the one of their country the US.They are the ones who can brief us on the subject and thus complete the general knowledge we have about it.One scenario of gay political independence will have to do with taking advantage of the disintegration of some empire or superpower,and having a slice of it.My suggestion would therefore be the following: that our US colleagues englighten us on the internal fault lines of the US,as they see them on site,in their own words.This will form part of the contribution to this forum,and open them a place in the debate.


K6

K6

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Re: Kingdom of Fridet
« Reply #34 on: Sun, Dec 11, 2005, 16:16 »

You are certainly right that we could form a superpower, if all human beings with homosexual desire would determine themselves as gays (likewise queers) and immigrate to the said gay homeland with all their possessions.

Unfortunately, the reality in which the gay homeland movement founds itself in present days is looking differently. The most homosexuals in countries with highly oppressive public opinion and censorship even don't know they belong to our species, as they were always told and, no doubt, often believe by themselves that they are "the only perverts" there (this phenomenon the older of us know very well even from the "free world"). It would require immense technological investments from our side to reach these unhappy souls by means of satellite television and other propaganda instruments. Second problem (for the movement) is that probably the most gays and lesbians in developed countries follow the "integrationalist" vision and are somewhat hostile towards the "separatist" movement or do not take us seriously. Surely, once the gay state is established, the amount of supporters will grow, but the decisive step towards establishing of such a state will be extremely difficult. The integrationalists themselves are of course free to follow their vision (which is certainly legitimate and good), but so are we. We have lots of propaganda work to do and are, as a movement, not very successful at the moment - there is very much of propaganda and organisatory work to do.

Therefore we should recognize the success of the Jewish State project properly. They began with little and have achieved much. I have an ambivalent feelings towards the politics of the Israeli government and condemn their disruptive actionism against Palestinians severely. Nevertheless, I am a friend of the Jewish people and cannot agree to a statement that USA are "the only friend" they have in the world. Regarding their humble population in comparison to the population of their enemies in the last war, Israelis have defended their country with remarkable courage. They received weapons and financial help, but I am not aware that units of US-army were fighting on their side? The Israeli State is so far indeed a success story, and we would be lucky to succeed with something similar, be it at least a city-state or a new "Gay Hanse League" of such settlements.

Establishing a gay independent state as a medium size world power would be enough.We must be cautious with the idea of becoming ourselves a superpower,for this would exceed by far our means,and we would thus only repeat a common error in heterosexual history: imperialism.We
must therefore try to follow a middle course,between being too weak to remain independent on our own,or too saddled with international
responsibilities to sustain them indefinitely.Once a gay independent state is in existence,it wouldn`t need that much publicity: heterosexual
states,and perhaps the less tolerant among them,would make us a publicity.The best among us would see through hethro lies as we did ourselves,and join us.On the issue of the State of Israel,I am not shocked in the least by the way it treats the Palestinians.In that respect I could not be enrolled in an anti-zionist front.But I am,as a philosemite,greatly embarrassed by the alliance of Israel with the United States.There
could not be something more temporary than a superpower like the US.I do not understand how a people with such an acute sense of continuity and eternity like the Jews could have put themselves in such a situation,where their state could dissapear from the map not long
after the downfall of the US empire,their only protector.There are such difficult times,in the life of a gay political activist,when you have to contemplate parting from the very ones who where your historical models and examples.Though I am myself a great admirer of the Poles,I would turn against them if the gay interest required it.

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Mogul

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Re: Kingdom of Fridet
« Reply #33 on: Sun, Dec 11, 2005, 15:17 »

You are certainly right that we could form a superpower, if all human beings with homosexual desire would determine themselves as gays (likewise queers) and immigrate to the said gay homeland with all their possessions.

Unfortunately, the reality in which the gay homeland movement founds itself in present days is looking differently. The most homosexuals in countries with highly oppressive public opinion and censorship even don't know they belong to our species, as they were always told and, no doubt, often believe by themselves that they are "the only perverts" there (this phenomenon the older of us know very well even from the "free world"). It would require immense technological investments from our side to reach these unhappy souls by means of satellite television and other propaganda instruments. Second problem (for the movement) is that probably the most gays and lesbians in developed countries follow the "integrationalist" vision and are somewhat hostile towards the "separatist" movement or do not take us seriously. Surely, once the gay state is established, the amount of supporters will grow, but the decisive step towards establishing of such a state will be extremely difficult. The integrationalists themselves are of course free to follow their vision (which is certainly legitimate and good), but so are we. We have lots of propaganda work to do and are, as a movement, not very successful at the moment - there is very much of propaganda and organisatory work to do.

Therefore we should recognize the success of the Jewish State project properly. They began with little and have achieved much. I have an ambivalent feelings towards the politics of the Israeli government and condemn their disruptive actionism against Palestinians severely. Nevertheless, I am a friend of the Jewish people and cannot agree to a statement that USA are "the only friend" they have in the world. Regarding their humble population in comparison to the population of their enemies in the last war, Israelis have defended their country with remarkable courage. They received weapons and financial help, but I am not aware that units of US-army were fighting on their side? The Israeli State is so far indeed a success story, and we would be lucky to succeed with something similar, be it at least a city-state or a new "Gay Hanse League" of such settlements.
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" Salvor Hardin

K6

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Re: Kingdom of Fridet
« Reply #32 on: Sun, Dec 11, 2005, 14:13 »

Surely, there is (and always will be) a strong opposition to the idea of a gay homeland. So what? There is also a strong support for the idea. The  opponents will stay where they are, and supporters will emigrate or at least help how they can. There was never our intention to force the entire gay population into supporting of the idea; our intention is to win sympathysants by explaining and discussing the project. By the way, the early Jewish State movement from beginning was fiercefully opposed by large parts of the Jewish population and various Jewish leaders. This didn't disturb the state of Israel to be established finally (I recommend the lecture of the book "The Jewish State" by Theodor Herzl, in our library :L).

The best preview of the establishment of a gay independent state is perhaps to be sampled among the current coming out of gays in gay venues,as well as in migrations of gays from intolerant countries to more tolerant ones.The majority of gays won`t leave,but a sufficient number will maintain that country of ours in existence by immigrating to it.Tolerant heterosexual countries will constitute a transit area for gays living in other parts of the world.Though the zionist model offers tempting analogies,our situation is different from the one of the Jews in important respects.Like our numbers,for example.We are currently ten times more numerous than the Jews at the lowest estimate,and this will allow us
to establish an independent state which will not become the dependent of a superpower for its protection and existence.The zionist project
might end in a fiasco because,not having as much human ressources,it has placed itself under the total dependence of the United States which
is his only ally.But what will become of the State of Israel the day the US ceases to be a world power,which will unavoidedly happen ? Another
respect in which we differ fundamentaly from the Jews is that we have been existing since the origins of mankind,and that we will always exist.Thus,we will never run out of human ressources from abroad,and we will find ourselves in a position to follow in a quiet contempt the decline and downfall of world powers and empires,whose final days in anarchy will provide us even more immigrants.

K6
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