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[K6]

One can't force humans into feeleng a nation, but one can nurture these feelings by smart propaganda and real cultural investment. A course in gay history should be mandatory for any candidate for naturalization.

As for naturalization,I`d suggess that we rest content with the individual being a gay according to a formal definition.An individual who has succeded in being gay in an overwhelmingly heterosexual enrivonment has,in my view,passed the test for gay citizenship.So much the better if he did it by being curious enough to study history,even better gay history,but this shouldn`t be a requirement to be a citizen of a gay and independent geopolitical entity,micro or macro.We`re after loyalty and allegiance to a gay sexual orientation primarily.Individuals may achieve that goal by different
ways,based on the local conditions and societies in which they grew up.Their experiences in that respect will be of a prodigious interest,both documentary but also as curriculum material if we ever have a high school level for immigrants in their late teens.

K6

[Mogul]

There will be most probably no need to prohibit identification with any ethnic group, besides how should this function? Any individual grows up in particular cultural ambience, and it is his or her innate right to identify with any group he/she wants. We must go away from "prohibiting" some things which are natural to people, because with too many restrictions and invasions into privacy we would create a country noone is happy to live in. No, it is better to put additional efforts into developing of a gay/queer nationality, so the primary identification with the gay/queer people would come naturally and not by "governmental decrees". One can't force humans into feeleng a nation, but one can nurture these feelings by smart propaganda and real cultural investment. A course in gay history should be mandatory for any candidate for naturalization.

I agree with you, of course, that gays from different countries seem to be very similarly tempered. To describe it more precisely, the differences between ethnic groups are much less significant, than the differences within any ethnic group. However, the cultural differences between people from Asia, South and North America and Europe should not be neglected fully. It will be important to let the people learn about each other's original cultures.

[K6]

Seriously, it is probably in vane to speculate about the social structures of the future gay state. I would expext that different approaches would exist in a  parallel way, depending on the original cultures where the immigrants come from. Most certainly, Thai immigrants would generally have very different attitudes from immigrants coming from Iran. This not necessarily must be a source of violent conflicts: on contrary, the diversity can do the society a very good service, if only all the diverse individuals learn to respect eachother. This will be one of the major tasks of the government: to establish common rules of conduct and to enforce these rules with a hard hand.

So far,my experiences in the multicultural environment of Canada and while traveling abroad point out to no significant difference between gay
males,except in the color of their skin.Such experiences would rather reinforce my impression that we are indeed a people,one people.We could
have conflicts between gays,but I wouldn`t expect over differences in racial or ethnic origin.Racial and ethnic groups would have no independent
existence on our soil,because of the absence of specific and private reproductive activity of their own.In order to put an end to allegiances to
specific groups of origin and to reinforce our own national identity,we could prohibit identification to a race or to an ethnic group,such as it exists
in the micronation I am representing in alt.politics.micronations.A gay,I think,must identify with the international gay community,and not with any
hethro national group.

K6

[K6]

Interestingly, the lesbians who I know are much more militant than gays. Therefore, personally I tend to belief that gays will have to smooth lesbians in case we should establish a gay state. This might be a stupid prejudice, but male homosexuals in such a state would indeed have good reasons to be afraid of females.

I am not afraid of females.There is no reason to be.Lesbianism has a weak material and economic basis.The assigned tasks I had yesterday on my work shift,no female even of the most radical feminist variety,would have wanted to be part of it.I don`t think that women,lesbian or not,will
cause us gay males any serious problem or difficulty.They surely know what the consequences would be,if I or another other male ceased to
perform on their behalf backbreaking or dangerous tasks from which they are spared only because they live in heterosexual societies.

K6

[Mogul]

Interestingly, the lesbians who I know are much more militant than gays. Therefore, personally I tend to belief that gays will have to smooth lesbians in case we should establish a gay state. This might be a stupid prejudice, but male homosexuals in such a state would indeed have good reasons to be afraid of females.

Seriously, it is probably in vane to speculate about the social structures of the future gay state. I would expext that different approaches would exist in a  parallel way, depending on the original cultures where the immigrants come from. Most certainly, Thai immigrants would generally have very different attitudes from immigrants coming from Iran. This not necessarily must be a source of violent conflicts: on contrary, the diversity can do the society a very good service, if only all the diverse individuals learn to respect eachother. This will be one of the major tasks of the government: to establish common rules of conduct and to enforce these rules with a hard hand.

[K6]

Have you seen the Film "Gohatto" by the Japanese director Nagisa Oshima? There a 18-year-old youth becomes an object of jealousy and murderous intrigues.  I gues these clan rivalries would end up quite similarly!   

Btw, VD = Veneral Disease?

Yes,VD means Veneral Disease.

No,I haven`t seen the picture movie you`re mentionning here.But gay though they may be,males remain males with all the instincts of possession entailed,exacerbated by the fact human ressources would not be available directly as in an heterosexual culture,and not in the least moderated or tamed by the presence of a female lesbian population.

In my novel,certain clans simply abducted members from other clans.The type of action which,among gays,could lead to endless blood feuds.
Some clans staged a revolt,which the colonial gay government had to put down.The novel says that thereafter,the ringleaders died in "accidents" or of veneral diseases.After that,clans had to be registered as official polygamous unions,so that were to be no more argument about who belonged to which clan.

K6

[Mogul]

In my novel,the younger generation had a tendency to congregate in polygamous clans,fiercely independent and jealous of each other.Since they depended from the State for their human replacements by way of immigration,they spent a large part of their time intriguing and slandering other clans so as to have a bigger slice of the newcomers group.The most common accusation levelled against other clans was of course that the said clans were riddled with VD.

Have you seen the Film "Gohatto" by the Japanese director Nagisa Oshima? There a 18-year-old youth becomes an object of jealousy and murderous intrigues.  I gues these clan rivalries would end up quite similarly!   

Btw, VD = Veneral Disease?

[K6]

A scenario which I think to be not entirely surreal is that people could assume clan names, should clan system ever become a common phenomenon in the gay state. I hope these will be not the clans of the Japanse Yakuza style, but rather a sort of Kibbutz's with life-long family bonds. We should think about social models which would enable both individual freedoms and rich societal life, free of social isolation and nepotism.

In my novel,the younger generation had a tendency to congregate in polygamous clans,fiercely independent and jealous of each other.Since they depended from the State for their human replacements by way of immigration,they spent a large part of their time intriguing and slandering other clans so as to have a bigger slice of the newcomers group.The most common accusation levelled against other clans was of course that the said clans were riddled with VD.

K6

[K6]

1) The ballance between private and common interests will yet have to be found. I think the state has no right to disown individuals post-mortem, though I give you right that from my private point of view the community would be the proper heir of a gay man. This would probably depend on the way the individuals choose for them to be appropriate - either by marriage, polyandry or single living. In the case of intellectual property the person should of course profit materially from his/her work, but as late as with the death of the author the rights shall fall to the community. We must of course contemplate that we live not isolated from the rest of the world, and that other legislations might conflict with the local laws of the gay state.

I think that for that matter,we should trust the good judgement of the average gay,especially of the average gay writer.He will be clever enough
to draw his own conclusions in relation with his own aims.Through his writings,he only wants to live eternally in a way.Survival and transmission are  by no way guaranteed on the hethro side for gay litterature.Even in the hands of well intended and professionnal gay caretakers and archivists.
The later would be powerless against seizure or destruction by hethro vandals,for they do not possess the political power.A gay State - or its residents - would thus appear as more reliable heirs.If we must have a nationalization of gay litterature,I think that the decision must come from
below (individuals) rather than from above (the gay government).Most probably,a large part of gay litterature will end up as national inheritance,
in the hands of the State.Furthermore,the domestic litterary production of a gay State could constitute a serious competitor to gay litterary production from abroad,if only because it would tell different sort of stories.Stories out of a land with no more hethro oppression,and thus endowned with a more optimistic twist.

K6

[Mogul]

The first commers,judging by the historical experience we had in north America since the 16th century,will most probably be *adventurers*.Because self-determination will constitute for us nothing less than an adventure,not only in the beginning but on a permanent basis.That`s the advantage of so to speak moderate national political ambitions over extravagant universalists ones.People never tire of national ambitions,whereas they eventually end up having their fill with such internationalists ones like marxism.Once separatism will have become a common trend of political thought among gays,integrationists will have little time left to make a reality of their dreams.History will not grant them millenia or even centuries for that matter.

In our days, we already encounter large-scale gay migration from rural areas to few megapolices with outstanding gay culture. Cities like New York, San Francisco, London, Berlin, Cologne and Barcelona (and a couple more) acquire large part of their citizens not by the means of reproduction, but "immigration" from smaller towns and villages. I see no reason why the same mechanism should not work with the gay city-state, provided this state offers its citizens jobs, basic comforts and is of at least, let's say 100.000 inhabitants. The very begionning would be, of course, a very adventure and, in certain respects, a "say-good-by-to-civilization". A gay city of 500.000 inhabitants and a medium standart of live would exercise a tremendous draw to the gay population, from the simple reason that the ways to experience one's identity would raise from the level of close neighbourhood to the state level - with many gay tv-channels, many gay bookstores and many gay films to choose from when you go the cinema.

In a politically independent gay civilisation without family structures or lineages,the proper heir of everything,including litterary productions,should be the State.Individuals,however,will not necessarily trust State agencies,even if they are gay.And other social structures will anyway replace the family and allow for the normal transmission by way of wills.The individual will still have the possibility of transmitting inheritance to individuals of his choice,only that these individuals won`t be relatives.Family names,however,won`t serve any purpose and could eventually be abolished.They could be replaced in official documents - like identity cards - by the "vintage year" of the individual,that is his year of birth.Instead of rivalvy in reference to dynasty as in heterosexual society,individuals would boast about their respective generationd and their accomplishments.

1) The ballance between private and common interests will yet have to be found. I think the state has no right to disown individuals post-mortem, though I give you right that from my private point of view the community would be the proper heir of a gay man. This would probably depend on the way the individuals choose for them to be appropriate - either by marriage, polyandry or single living. In the case of intellectual property the person should of course profit materially from his/her work, but as late as with the death of the author the rights shall fall to the community. We must of course contemplate that we live not isolated from the rest of the world, and that other legislations might conflict with the local laws of the gay state.

2) You and your social engineering!  Probably you would enjoy the novell "Jennifer Government" by Max Barry, where individuals are supposed to have the name of their employer as their surnames (State employees are therefore XY Government). I do not dare to mention "Seven of Nine" frm the space ship "Voyager". 

A scenario which I think to be not entirely surreal is that people could assume clan names, should clan system ever become a common phenomenon in the gay state. I hope these will be not the clans of the Japanse Yakuza style, but rather a sort of Kibbutz's with life-long family bonds. We should think about social models which would enable both individual freedoms and rich societal life, free of social isolation and nepotism. It might prove to be necessary for immigrants to participate in "naturalization programs" where they would learn the country language and political structure of the state, as well as improve their knowledges in gay history.

[K6]

Not to forget those intellectuals!  Seriously, I am most confident that in a society (whether of one or of mixed sexes) work shall be, and usually is shared with regard of individual abilities and skills. It is also true, that personal skills of individual depend on the daily exercise and the factual needs of society in current stage of developement. Means, a librarian who finds himself in a situation requiring heavy bodily work, will suffer much but will be able to develope muscles and skills within a couple of monthes. I would expect that in the first years of any independent gay/lesbian settlement people will have to engage in many kinds of activities they never have done before - simply because there is no one else to do these things. Humans are very universally shaped beings, they can learn new things and cooperate.

The first commers,judging by the historical experience we had in north America since the 16th century,will most probably be *adventurers*.Because self-determination will constitute for us nothing less than an adventure,not only in the beginning but on a permanent basis.That`s the advantage of so to speak moderate national political ambitions over extravagant universalists ones.People never tire of national ambitions,whereas they eventually end up having their fill with such internationalists ones like marxism.Once separatism will have become a common trend of political thought among gays,integrationists will have little time left to make a reality of their dreams.History will not grant them millenia or even centuries for that matter.

K6

[K6]

Certainly true. As long as "foreign heterosexual presence" is limited and solely on the grounds of being a guest or a temporarily worker, there is probably no reason to fear being "overrun" by heterosexuals. Being a resident or a visitor does not give a person political rights, any criminal or severe disruptive behaviour can entail extradiction to the home country - all the usual measures known from other countries.

Diplomats,tourists and cooperants are ok.Because their residency can be terminated should it cause us difficulties.They are the national of other countries,who have an obligation to greet them.Not so the case with heterosexual descendants of gay nationals born on gay sovereign soil.
They could not be expelled if they caused us problems,because there would exist no country with an obligation to take them back.We must take in as immigrants and permanent residents only those who are not likely to reconstitute the basis of an hethro regime.Thus my insistence on a narrow definition of who is gay encompassing only individuals with no ambitions similar to the heterosexuals,like founding a family.Why besides bother with having a family when the possibility will exist for gays to establish polygamous cliques,clans or tribes,which will replace the family structure.A gay State would of course have the proper agencies in the form of consulates and embassies abroad,who would give travel and immigration advice,so that there would be no misunderstanding about what kind of life expects an immigrant and permanent resident.

K6

[Mogul]

[..] If we are to maintain a gay independent state in existence,we will have to be a bit more serious about itsdemographic composition and equilibrium.

Certainly true. As long as "foreign heterosexual presence" is limited and solely on the grounds of being a guest or a temporarily worker, there is probably no reason to fear being "overrun" by heterosexuals. Being a resident or a visitor does not give a person political rights, any criminal or severe disruptive behaviour can entail extradiction to the home country - all the usual measures known from other countries.

[..] So,in a negociation with women,I would expect them to seek to continue with us merely what exists in modern heterosexual societies,taking the positive sides of equality between the sexes but avoiding those having to do with services and duties. [..]

Not to forget those intellectuals!  Seriously, I am most confident that in a society (whether of one or of mixed sexes) work shall be, and usually is shared with regard of individual abilities and skills. It is also true, that personal skills of individual depend on the daily exercise and the factual needs of society in current stage of developement. Means, a librarian who finds himself in a situation requiring heavy bodily work, will suffer much but will be able to develope muscles and skills within a couple of monthes. I would expect that in the first years of any independent gay/lesbian settlement people will have to engage in many kinds of activities they never have done before - simply because there is no one else to do these things. Humans are very universally shaped beings, they can learn new things and cooperate.

[K6]

The right for citizenship can be bound to certain political requirements, but the right for asylum must stand beyound any question.

Well,with such an accomplished fact like presence on gay sovereign soil,not being a citizen won`t constitute much an obstacle to further accomplished facts with cumulative effect upon the demographic make up of the state.The hethro lifestyle,with its outward appearance of recreation,also has a speciality for accomplished facts of the biological and reproductive variety,quite remote from the original recreational and lachrymo-humanitarian appearance.If we are to maintain a gay independent state in existence,we will have to be a bit more serious about its
demographic composition and equilibrium.

K6

[K6]

As a supposed "intellectual"  I have had my experiences with hard bodily work as well, therefore I know what you mean. Newertheless, you must recognize that there is no need to perform things in the way they were traditionally handled before simply because there were always men awaylable to schlep heawy things. There is no need to carry the piano upstairs by powers of muscles, as one can comfortably do the same work with a lifting platform. Of course, this would require a carefull planning of entire infrastructure right from beginning, but males do as well consider their bodily limits. All I want say is that only-female society possibly would do many things in different (smarter) ways, while it will surelly be able to comfortably survive on its own.

 

I am sure that women would do it.They did it after all in Paraguay,in the late 19th century,after a war against all neighboors of Paraguay which wiped out most of its male population.But before women do it,they will try first to avoid doing it.In Paraguay and in the late 19th century,they had no choice but to rebuild themselves the country.So,in a negociation with women,I would expect them to seek to continue with us merely what exists in modern heterosexual societies,taking the positive sides of equality between the sexes but avoiding those having to do with services and duties.However,and while in the company of such males like my humble self women would enjoy a total security against sexual aggression or harassment,they would no longer have the negociating hedge or tools they had in an heterosexual society by way of the oldest trade.They could not sell their bodies nor rent their wombs,as I am completely indifferent to both.Far from constituting something attracting and to be exploited,their eventual material dependence would be perceive by me as a threath to my freedom to roam and to my independence as a male.
Attraction to young males is my main,but not my only motive for being gay.

K6